Caught in a lie already: Lipstadt-Irving "Denial” movie trailer

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2503
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: Caught in a lie already: Lipstadt-Irving "Denial” movie trailer

Postby borjastick » 3 years 1 month ago (Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:31 am)

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/ ... t-82463517

The media are now rolling with this film's launch. The comments are interesting. A mix of hatred and disgust for Irving and the rights and wrongs of the trial itself.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3346
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Caught in a lie already: Lipstadt-Irving "Denial” movie trailer

Postby Hektor » 3 years 1 month ago (Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:16 am)

I checked briefly in:
David Hare – nothing but the truth about a Holocaust denier
In 2000 historian David Irving sued author Deborah Lipstadt for her description of him as a Holocaust denier. As his screen version comes to the cinema, David Hare explains why the trial was a triumph of free speech


Now that's pretty warped Logic. I guess that's necessary, if you want to make something else out of the Trial, David Irving and Deborah Lipstadt other than what they really are. While I probably won't have taken Lipstadt to trial, she and her ilk definitely use bullying tactics based on wealth and social position against dissidents. Now Britain and some other countries may not have "Holocaust Denial" legislation to suppress dissent, there are clearly other social mechanism at work to oppress it.

The Anti-Irving (pro Holocaust) responses are infantile to vitriolic, but I guess some intelligent people will be able to see that.

I see you also posted there, borjarstick, but they deleted the comment. Some critical remarks actually went through. I'm not registered, so I can't comment. I just can take notice for now. Given the censorship, one should perhaps take screen shots for the record.

flimflam
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 172
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:19 am
Contact:

Re: Caught in a lie already: Lipstadt-Irving "Denial” movie trailer

Postby flimflam » 3 years 1 month ago (Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:55 am)

I opened an account, here is a comment that was deleted in < 1 minute, and apparently my account closed ..... :(....

From the video 'Introduction to the Holohoax' on YouTube -

The holocaust is a preposterous hoax that is unsupported by any physical evidence, it consists of literally millions of lies, but it is all rests on one big lie, and that big lie is the focus of this video.

First what is the holocaust hoax or holohoax? It is well known that the Nazis put the Jews in camps, just as the US put the Japanese in camps, so that is no hoax. The hoax has three main components:
1. the Nazis planned to exterminate the Jews.
2. the Nazis built gas chambers to exterminate the Jews, and disguised them as shower rooms.
3. the Nazis killed six million Jews.
Each component of the hoax is categorically false and completely without evidence.
There was no Nazi plan to exterminate the Jews, or anyone else, and no evidence for one has ever been found.
The gas chambers are pure phantasmagoria and there is not a shred of physical evidence for them.
The number of Jews that were killed in the camps for being Jews is zero, and it is well documented that the Nazis aggressively investigated crime in the camps.

Now, what is the big lie? The big lie is the photos and film footage of prisoners that had died of typhus at Belsen in the last months of the war, photographed by the British liberators of the camp, that for seventy years have been presented as evidence of Nazi gassings.

All fully documented in the vid.

User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2503
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: Caught in a lie already: Lipstadt-Irving "Denial” movie trailer

Postby borjastick » 3 years 1 month ago (Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:02 am)

My comment was deleted but apparently I am not banned. My future comments will be pre moderated, presumably so they conform to any agenda they choose. In fact my comment was rather tame. I simply pointed out a mistake in the trailer and that the evidence for the holocaust was somewhat slim.

They just don't like the truth getting in the way of a good story do they?
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3346
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Caught in a lie already: Lipstadt-Irving "Denial” movie trailer

Postby Hektor » 3 years 1 month ago (Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:26 pm)

borjastick wrote:My comment was deleted but apparently I am not banned. My future comments will be pre moderated, presumably so they conform to any agenda they choose. In fact my comment was rather tame. I simply pointed out a mistake in the trailer and that the evidence for the holocaust was somewhat slim.

They just don't like the truth getting in the way of a good story do they?


A well known problem. And one that is somewhat pushing people to do force-feeding, giving mods in turn a reason to ban the poster. A more subtle approach is required. So one keeps the comment less edgy, more in the line of "food for thought". Given the complexity of the subject that can be quite difficult. My take on the Iriving/Lipstadt trial is as follows:
- Small author gets bullied by Big publisher as being labelled and libeled. (Essentially name-calling as real debate with arguments.)
- Point out that the trial wasn't about validity of Holocaust, but about a dispute between Lipstadt and Irving.
- Small author fights back by starting libel proceedings.
- Big publisher raises a substantial amount of resources including big guns from official history departments. The payments those academics got for their appearances were ridiculously lavish. I recall amounts of close to a 100.000 pounds per big gun. (IRVING GIVES THOSE FIGURES: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Legal/Penguin/expe ... ments.html )

Needless to say, if the Holocaust was for real a comprehensive report with a summary of finding would have been sufficient to make the case. Cost? Probably less then 100 pounds.

Of course you can't reach the dim-wits with this (but then who really wants to do that). Their "reasoning" is: "Irving is a filthy Holocaust Denier, who got what he deserved - The court proved the Holocaust". But then there are the 10% brighter bulbs that may have started to think about the issue. They will wonder about the Power Relations in all of this, and what the real facts of the matter are. The brightest bulbs may already have noticed that "Holocaust Experts" do have a vested interest in the perpetuation of the Holocaust Myth. They've written books in that line, they get grants because of the weight "the Holocaust" bears, certain positions depend on the Holocaust narrative being true. Imagine that the Holocaust would be dismissed as atrocity propaganda, their career investment would lose most of it's value and given that they've perpetuated a lie, their reputations would be close freezing point. It's kind like a church/religion that wouldn't believe in the truth of their key dogmas, they'll lose support members, support, credibility until they're reduced to less then social construct. In fact one can observe it nowadays in Europe and I deem the Holocaust Historians smart enough to realize this.

Additionally one can admit that Irving has been a bit naive and stupid, if he thought he could take on Lipstadt and the cabal she represents. They're well funded, well informed and ruthless in their undertakings. So the outcome would have been predictable. Now Irving sits with the bills. Anyway, that placed a lot of things on record. And I think it was a Pyrrhic Victory for the Holocaust Industry. What still helps them is their competitive advantage in terms of resources as well as the social and cultural capital they build over the years. And you can be certain they also know what the value of this is, hence will use all adequate means to defend it.

Hieldner
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:21 am

Re: Caught in a lie already: Lipstadt-Irving "Denial” movie trailer

Postby Hieldner » 3 years 1 month ago (Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:06 pm)

Video of David Iriving describing his encounter with Lipstadt in Atlanta in November 1994:

The corresponding diary entry: https://web.archive.org/web/19990508124 ... 41194.html

One commentator claims that Irving plans to release an audio file of the filmed event soon. Is this true?
»[Holocaust soap] odor, if captured and retained… would preserve the core of an individual soul… The undesirable smell of the extract spoke of the spectral Derridian trace… that continued to remind its consumers of their own bio-ontology.«—B. Shallcross

User avatar
borjastick
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 2503
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:52 am
Location: Europe

Re: Caught in a lie already: Lipstadt-Irving "Denial” movie trailer

Postby borjastick » 3 years 1 month ago (Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:11 am)

Hieldner wrote:Video of David Iriving describing his encounter with Lipstadt in Atlanta in November 1994:

The corresponding diary entry: https://web.archive.org/web/19990508124 ... 41194.html

One commentator claims that Irving plans to release an audio file of the filmed event soon. Is this true?


Fascinating stuff Hieldner I hadn't seen this before. He clearly shows what actually happened at that infamous lecture and that the myth must be protected from inspection and truth. That he was banned from the following lecture says more about the truth being shielded from openness than they would like to be known.

Pity he didn't talk about the two people at the end of the film, when he was in the lobby, who clearly didn't like what he had done. I wonder what their points were and why they were remonstrating with him. But ten out of ten to Mr Irving for his explanation.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

Review
Member
Member
Posts: 115
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:53 pm

Re: Caught in a lie already: Lipstadt-Irving "Denial” movie trailer

Postby Review » 3 years 1 month ago (Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:11 pm)

borjastick wrote:https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/sep/03/david-hare-nothing-but-the-truth-about-a-holocaust-denial#comment-82463517

The media are now rolling with this film's launch. The comments are interesting. A mix of hatred and disgust for Irving and the rights and wrongs of the trial itself.


Some ½ of the comments are censored. The Guardian of Truth is doing its job..

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3346
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Caught in a lie already: Lipstadt-Irving "Denial” movie trailer

Postby Hektor » 3 years 1 month ago (Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:35 am)

Review wrote:....
Some ½ of the comments are censored. The Guardian of Truth is doing its job..


And it won't be the comments that spit vitriol against Irving or the "Holocaust deniers"....

The beauty of the Guardian's censorship is that they still show that there was a posting with even the responses standing in the room there.

User avatar
ginger
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 300
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 11:52 am

Re: Caught in a lie already: Lipstadt-Irving "Denial” movie trailer

Postby ginger » 3 years 1 month ago (Tue Sep 06, 2016 12:47 pm)

Hektor - In answer to your question from a few days ago –

“I didn't pay attention to what van Pelt was saying about this, can you point out to where he alleges that this was some kind of perpetual heating oven only requiring corpses to run?"

"If there is anything in the Topf and Soehne records that indicates an allegation that the oven doesn't require fuel, I would like to see it.”

I didn’t mean to say the oven needed no fuel.

From the TV documentary –– https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCERa40KP64 - at 43:25 to 47:07 – we hear Van Pelt say 120,000 bodies were cremated each month. Then we hear Irving argue that it would require mountains of fuel. Van Pelt responds that it could be done with small amounts of fuel - a water bottle of fuel per corpse – Van Pelt then reads from a report written in the 1980’s on the patent application proposed by Topf during the war – saying it was “self-heating” (but really it would have required small amounts of fuel).

One representation of the oven can be found here:

http://www.topfundsoehne.de/cms-www/ind ... id=120&l=1

I would be surprised if Van Pelt’s testimony of the oven is emphasized in the new movie “Denial” because the oven was never built.

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3346
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Caught in a lie already: Lipstadt-Irving "Denial” movie trailer

Postby Hektor » 3 years 1 month ago (Tue Sep 06, 2016 2:55 pm)

Van Pelt is definitely talking nonsense here:
- Special Oven not built. Als not claimed by any witnesses.
- Bottle of fuel, suppose that's one liter of Diesel / Coke would be KG. How he's going to cremate one 50kg corpse with this, especially in a short time is a mystery.

So well done. Should be on the website debunking the "Denial" movie.

Mortimer
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 421
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 2:27 am

Re: Caught in a lie already: Lipstadt-Irving "Denial” movie trailer

Postby Mortimer » 3 years 1 day ago (Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:14 pm)

There are pro and anti revisionist comments at the Internet Movie Data Base message board for Denial. The IMDB is to be congratulated for allowing both sides to have their say. It is free to join if you wish to make a comment -
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4645330/board/threads/
There are 2 sides to every story - always listen or read both points of view and make up your own mind. Don't let others do your thinking for you.

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3346
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Caught in a lie already: Lipstadt-Irving "Denial” movie trailer

Postby Hektor » 2 years 11 months ago (Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:20 am)

Mortimer wrote:There are pro and anti revisionist comments at the Internet Movie Data Base message board for Denial. The IMDB is to be congratulated for allowing both sides to have their say. It is free to join if you wish to make a comment -
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4645330/board/threads/


Excellent. not sure how the board there works. I'd guess letting them argue first and then intervene with corrective action for false arguments should be helpful.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot] and 7 guests