Challenge to supporters of the "transit camp" theory

[CWhite]

The following might also be of interest to anyone watching the total destruction of muehlenkamp on "that other site:"

Greg Gerdes wrote:

Roberto, is there a preponderance of evidence that more than:

434,508 - jews actually set foot in Belzec - Yes. - or - No. - ??

145,301 - jews actually set foot in Chelmno - Yes. - or - No. - ??

101,370 - jews actually set foot in Sobibor - Yes. - or - No. - ??

713,555 - jews actually set foot in Treblinka II - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Roberto answered:

A preponderance of evidence? Yes for all camps besides Belzec,

To which Mr. Gerdes replied:

Roberto, is there a preponderance of evidence that more than:

434,508 - jews actually set foot in Belzec - Yes. - or - No. - ??

145,301 - jews actually set foot in Chelmno - Yes. - or - No. - ??

101,370 - jews actually set foot in Sobibor - Yes. - or - No. - ??

713,555 - jews actually set foot in Treblinka II - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Roberto:

A preponderance of evidence? Yes for all camps besides Belzec,

Greg Gerdes:

So are these your answers:

Roberto, is there a preponderance of evidence that more than:

434,508 - jews actually set foot in Belzec - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Roberto's answer: No.

145,301 - jews actually set foot in Chelmno - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Roberto's answer: Yes.

101,370 - jews actually set foot in Sobibor - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Roberto's answer: Yes.

713,555 - jews actually set foot in Treblinka II - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Roberto's answer: Yes.

Which poor cornered and cowed Roberto has now dodged at least 15 times!

[CWhite]

Now put the post above together with the following:

Question to Roberto:

Roberto, if a total of - 1,394,734 - jews were "killed at these camps as all known evidence shows them to have been," and you "can prove beyond a reasonable doubt [that those - 1,394,734 - jews] actually set foot in and [were] killed and buried in the camps mentioned [B, C, S & TII] " - then:

How many names is it possible for the "supporters of the 'transit camp' theory" to gather?

Roberto:

Zero, and that's the point of the challenge... the challenge can't be met.

So muehlenkamp alleges that his challenge can't be met because he can prove that every single jew that can be proven to have actually set foot in the camps of Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II can be proven by him to have actually set foot in the camps - he also alleges that he can prove all those jews were killed and buried in said camps. But then he got confused because he can't keep all his lies straight, and alleged that there a preponderance of evidence that more than 145,301 - jews actually set foot in Chelmno, more than 101,370 - jews actually set foot in Sobibor and more than 713,555 jews actually set foot in Treblinka II.

This statement by muehlenkamp himself will help explain what I'm trying to show here:

I don't need Shermer to show that I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt what I stated I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt. I can make my case based on precedents of legitimate courts of law that have accepted mass murder at the mentioned places as proven beyond a reasonable doubt, based on what evidence I can present, or even less than that.

[CWhite]

FYI - I just noticed on "that other site" that Greg Gerdes has forced Roberto to admit the following:

Greg Gerdes wrote:

[Roberto] Do you also claim the following:

The number of jews I can prove - beyond a shadow of a doubt - to have actually set foot in and been killed and buried in the camps mentioned below is the following:

Belzec - 434,508

Chelmno - 145,301

Sobibor - 101,370

Treblinka II - 713,555

Total = 1,394,734

Yes. - or - No. - ??


Roberto:

the answer is "no".

Mr. Gerdes has destroyed muehlenkamp so bad on "that other site" that poor Roberto has tucked tail and ran away from him.

[CWhite]

And a few follow-up posts:

by Greg Gerdes » Thu Jul 20, 2017 7:53 am

So let's clarify what poor Roberto is too scared to accept as a standard of proof:

The number of jews I can prove - with the utmost certainty - to have actually set foot in and been killed and buried in the camps mentioned below is the following:

Belzec - 434,508

Chelmno - 145,301

Sobibor - 101,370

Treblinka II - 713,555

Total = 1,394,734


With the utmost certainty:

With the greatest / most extreme extent / amount of certainty possible.


Roberto cravenly refuses to accept such a reasonable standard of proof.


The number of jews I can prove - beyond a shadow of a doubt - to have actually set foot in and been killed and buried in the camps mentioned below is the following:

Belzec - 434,508

Chelmno - 145,301

Sobibor - 101,370

Treblinka II - 713,555

Total = 1,394,734


Beyond a shadow of a doubt:

Certainty; definitely. In a manner or to a degree that could not be doubted.


Roberto cravenly refuses to accept such a reasonable standard of proof.



The number of jews I can prove - with 100% certainty - to have actually set foot in and been killed and buried in the camps mentioned below is the following:

Belzec - 434,508

Chelmno - 145,301

Sobibor - 101,370

Treblinka II - 713,555

Total = 1,394,734


With 100% certainty:

Self explanitory.


Roberto cravenly refuses to accept such a reasonable standard of proof.

Roberto:

"Beyond a reasonable doubt" means to the satisfaction of an entity that applies the "beyond reasonable doubt" standard of evidence, such as a court of law in the US or Germany in criminal trials.

Greg Gerdes:

Does "beyond a reasonable doubt" also mean to the satisfaction of an individual person who applies the "beyond reasonable doubt" standard of evidence in other areas, such as a researcher / historian or an arbiter of a challenge - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Roberto:

Yes.

Greg Gerdes:

Thank you Roberto.

Greg Gerdes:

Beyond a Reasonable Doubt:

The term connotes that evidence establishes a particular point to a moral certainty and that it is beyond dispute that any reasonable alternative is possible.

Do you agree with the above statement Roberto - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Roberto:

Yes.

Greg Gerdes:

Thank you Roberto.

Greg Gerdes:

Robrerto, can you prove - with 100% certainty - that at least one jew actually set foot in and was murdered and buried in:

Belzec - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Chelmno - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Sobibor - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Treblinka II - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Roberto:

No

Greg Gerdes:

I didn't think so.

[CWhite]

Now, getting back to the OP of this thread (From "that other site"):

OK, so this is the OP:

I will accept Roberto Muehlenkamp's - "Transit Camp Challenge" - after Michael Shermer, the arbiter of said challenge, reviews Muehlenkamp's defense of these statements:

Roberto:

So a total of - 1,394,734 - jews are supposed to have been transited to the "Russian East" in this period through these camps alone, instead of being killed at these camps as all known evidence shows them to have been.

Question to Roberto:

Roberto, if a total of - 1,394,734 - jews were "killed at these camps as all known evidence shows them to have been," and you "can prove beyond a reasonable doubt [that those - 1,394,734 - jews] actually set foot in and [were] killed and buried in the camps mentioned [B, C, S & TII] " - then:

How many names is it possible for the "supporters of the 'transit camp' theory" to gather?

Roberto:

Zero, and that's the point of the challenge... the challenge can't be met.

Roberto:

The challenge pertains specifically to - 1,394,734 - jews (no more - and no less) that I can prove actually set foot in Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor or Treblinka II, and that I can prove were killed and buried in the camps to which they were deported. The number of jews that I can prove - beyond a reasonable doubt - (Note: I define the term "beyond a reasonable doubt" here as meaning; the evidence that I will provide will convince any reasonable person that said evidence has established my claims to a degree of certainty that will be beyond dispute, and that any person who does dispute my clams after seeing my evidence - is not a reasonable person.) - AND - with the same expressed and implied standards of proof used by Michael Shermer, Skeptic Magazine and The Skeptics Society to determine what constitutes proof - to have actually set foot in and been killed and buried in the camps mentioned below, is the following:


Belzec - 434,508

Chelmno - 145,301

Sobibor - 101,370

Treblinka II - 713,555

Total = 1,394,734

from skeptical inquiry - by me - and consequently, in an email to me, categorically endorses the above quoted statements made by Muehlenkamp (in red), as having been proven by Muehlenkamp - beyond a reasonable doubt - and that all proofs presented by Muehlenkamp in this thread in defense of his above quoted statements - were free of lies - and met his own, Skeptic Magazine's and The Skeptics Society's expressed and implied standards of proof.

However, as I pointed out earlier, poor Roberto has tucked-tail and ran away form the beating Mr. Gerdes' was putting on him on "that other site," and on this forum, poor confused Roberto is alleging that - 726,441 - jews were killed at Treblinka II.

Oh what a tangled web we weave, huh Roberto?

[CWhite]

The following was recently posted by Roberto on "that other site:"

Beyond a Reasonable Doubt

The standard that must be met by the prosecution's evidence in a criminal prosecution: that no other logical explanation can be derived from the facts except that the defendant committed the crime, thereby overcoming the presumption that a person is innocent until proven guilty.

If the jurors or judge have no doubt as to the defendant's guilt, or if their only doubts are unreasonable doubts, then the prosecutor has proven the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and the defendant should be pronounced guilty.

The term connotes that evidence establishes a particular point to a moral certainty and that it is beyond dispute that any reasonable alternative is possible. It does not mean that no doubt exists as to the accused's guilt, but only that no Reasonable Doubt is possible from the evidence presented.

Beyond a reasonable doubt is the highest standard of proof that must be met in any trial. In civil litigation, the standard of proof is either proof by a preponderance of the evidence or proof by clear and convincing evidence. These are lower burdens of proof. A preponderance of the evidence simply means that one side has more evidence in its favor than the other, even by the smallest degree. Clear and Convincing Proof is evidence that establishes a high probability that the fact sought to be proved is true. The main reason that the high proof standard of reasonable doubt is used in criminal trials is that such proceedings can result in the deprivation of a defendant's liberty or even in his or her death. These outcomes are far more severe than in civil trials, in which money damages are the common remedy.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/beyond+a+reasonable+doubt

proof beyond a reasonable doubt

Highest burden of proof in a criminal case, placed normally on the prosecution. Because under common law the defendant is presumed innocent, his or her guilt must be proven to the entire satisfaction of the judge or jury. This term, however, does not imply 'beyond a shadow of a doubt.' If the evidence is so strong that there is only a remote possibility (and no probability) of an extenuating circumstance, the guilt is then deemed to have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Whether the same level of proof is required also in civil cases is still a matter of debate.

http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/proof-beyond-a-reasonable-doubt.html

And here's one that is even clearer (emphasis added):

The standard for conviction in a criminal trial; evidence sufficient to convince a reasonable person beyond doubt of the guilt of the defendant. The requirement of proof beyond a reasonable doubt is not so stringent as to preclude the possibility of error, as is, “beyond the shadow of a doubt,” nor as loose as, “the preponderance of the evidence,” as is the standard in a civil trial.

http://www.yourdictionary.com/beyond-a-reasonable-doubt

Now, for something to preclude the possibility (however improbable) of error, it must be mathematically certain. It must be as certain as it is certain that two plus two make four. It is not sufficient that it is as certain as it is certain that the moon exists or that the earth is a planet of a star called the sun that rotates around its own axis and orbits around the sun. There is a (however remote and improbable) theoretical possibility that the moon does not exist, that the earth is not a planet or a star, etc.)

As concerns mass extermination at Belzec, Sobibór, Treblinka and Chelmno, there is a (however remote and improbable) theoretical possibility that it didn't occur and the places in question were actually just transit camps en route to what Korherr called the "Russian East".

However, that possibility can be ruled out beyond a reasonable doubt because a) all known evidence points to mass extermination, and b) no evidence whatsoever points to a transit via these camps to the "Russian East" - even though one should reasonably expect an enormous amount of evidence supporting the transit camp theory if that theory held water.

Please notice Roberto's blatant lies (in blue).

That is why he only posts on "that other site" - because he can (and does) lie and dodge with impunity.

Roberto:

all known evidence points to mass extermination [at at Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II]

That is so funny, because not only is it an easily disprovable lie, but poor Roberto used to say pretty much the same thing about Sobibor's "ash mound:"

The conclusion that the mound in question is comprised of human ash is thus the conclusion that is borne out by all known evidence and belied by none. It is also the conclusion towards which various sources of evidence independent of each other converge. This convergence of various sources of evidence… is proof that the mound in question is comprised of human ash."

Until Mr. Gerdes forced him to admit otherwise.

[CWhite]

Roberto:

all known evidence points to mass extermination [at at Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II], and b) no evidence whatsoever points to a transit via these camps to the "Russian East

Does that include all known physical evidence Roberto - Yes. - or - No. - ??

If your answer is - Yes. - then;

Is there enough physical evidence within the boundary of the Belzec camp to substantiate your allegations of mass extermination - Yes. - or - No. - ??

(There either is or there isn't. If there is, then the answer would be - Yes. If there isn't, then the answer would be - No.)

And Roberto's - Yes. -or - No. - answer is: ??

Is there enough physical evidence within the boundary of the Chelmno camp to substantiate your allegations of mass extermination - Yes. - or - No. - ??

(There either is or there isn't. If there is, then the answer would be - Yes. If there isn't, then the answer would be - No.)

And Roberto's - Yes. -or - No. - answer is: ??

Is there enough physical evidence within the boundary of the Sobibor camp to substantiate your allegations of mass extermination - Yes. - or - No. - ??

(There either is or there isn't. If there is, then the answer would be - Yes. If there isn't, then the answer would be - No.)

And Roberto's - Yes. -or - No. - answer is: ??

Is there enough physical evidence within the boundary of the Treblinka II camp to substantiate your allegations of mass extermination - Yes. - or - No. - ??

(There either is or there isn't. If there is, then the answer would be - Yes. If there isn't, then the answer would be - No.)

And Roberto's - Yes. -or - No. - answer is: ??

As well Roberto, please tell us:

#43 - The MAXIMUM number of the 33 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Belzec identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

#44 - The MAXIMUM number of the 33 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Belzec identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

#45 - The MAXIMUM number of the 15 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Chelmno identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

#46 - The MAXIMUM number of the 15 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Chelmno identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

#47 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

#48 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

#49 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

#50 - The MAXIMUM number of the 11 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Treblinka II identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: ?

[CWhite]

Check out these hilarious lies by muehlenkamp:

Greg Gerdes wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:15 am

Roberto, do you deny that the 16 so-called “huge mass graves” of Sobibor can be seen on page 7 (figure 6) of this link here:

http://sobibor.info.pl/wp-content/uploa%20...%20n-2013.pdf

and are numbered by The N.A.F.H. as follows:

1 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #1 / 49

2 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #2 / 50

"Memory Hill" (AKA the - "mound of ashes / remains") = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #3 / 51

3/4 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #4 / 52

5 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #5 / 53

6 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #6 / 54

7 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #7 / 55

8 (8/15) = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #8 / 56

9 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #9 / 57

10 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #10 / 58

11 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #11 / 59

12 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #12 / 60

13 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #13 / 61

14 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #14 / 62

15 (8/15) = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #15 / 63

16 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #16 / 64

Roberto's answer: No

Roberto:

Exactly, I don't deny that at all

So on Fri Jul 21, 2017 at 11:15 am, Roberto, in one thread on "that other site" admitted that there are 16 alleged Sobibor graves shown on this map here:




But just three hours earlier, in another thread on "that other site" poor confused Roberto said there were only 8:

by Roberto » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:36 am

Greg Gerdes wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:16 am

Roberto,

Is it known - beyond reasonable doubt - that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have actually located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves within the boundaries of each of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Roberto's answer: Yes.

Well then Robeto, how many total discernable / measurable extant mass graves within the boundaries of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps have been proven - beyond reasonable doubt - by legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators to actually exist?

Total - ?

Break it down:

Belzec - ?

Chelmno - ?

Sobibor - ?

Treblinka II - ?

Roberto:

Respectively 33, 4 (plus 11 ash disposal pits) and 8 for the first three. As concerns Treblinka I don't know the number of probable or certain burial pits that CS-C stated to have found and she has provided no further details, but there's no reason to assume that she lied and her reported finds are entirely plausible in view of other available evidence.

So poor confused Roberto changed his Sobibor answer 100% in just three hours!



So is the answer 8 or 16 - or some other figure today - Roberto?



Nope - no siree - no reasonable doubts what-so-ever about the phantom "huge mass graves" of Sobibor that Roberto alleges he can prove - "beyond a reasonable doubt" - that can change in number by 100% in just three hours!

What reasonable person could have any doubts about such a degree of certainty?

[CWhite]

Roberto just can't seem to get his lies straight.

First he alleged that:

The challenge pertains specifically to the - 1,419,467 - jews that I can prove actually set foot in Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor or Treblinka II, and that I can prove were killed and buried in the camps to which they were deported.

Then he made this statement on "that other site:"

The number of Jews I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt to have actually set foot in and been killed and buried in the camps mentioned below is the following:

Belzec - 434,508

Chelmno - 145,301

Sobibor - 101,370

Treblinka II - 713,555

Total = 1,394,734

Which is a reduction of: 24,733.

As far at Treblinka II goes, first he alleged "The number of Jews I can prove beyond a reasonable doubt to have actually set foot in and been killed and buried in Treblinka II is - 713,555. But now he's alleging - 726,441.

Which is an addition of: 12,886.

Well poor confused Roberto now has yet another death toll figure for Treblinka II. Just yesterday he posted this on "that other site:"

Posted on - Tue Jul 25, 2017 4:54 pm:

Roberto:

The mass graves occupied just about 22 % of that sector’s area

Hannover:

And those alleged mass graves are claimed to be in existence today, but Roberto, nor anyone else can actually show us any excavations and the alleged massive remains of an alleged 700,000 - 900,000 Jews. The Los Angeles Coliseum holds a mere 90,000 people, yet Roberto cannot show us the claimed 700,000, - 900,000 remains of Jews that are said to be still buried at Treblinka.

Roberto:

No, I cannot. That would require a complete excavation of all Treblinka mass graves (after removing the memorial stones and their foundation to gain access to where most of these graves probably are located), separating the cremation remains from the soil they are mixed with (assuming that this is possible), quantifying the cremation remains, estimating how many human beings they are likely to correspond to considering the degree of cremation that the remains suggest, and taking photographs of all cremation remains thus quantified. That would be over 5,000 metric tons and over 10,000 cubic meters of cremation remains assuming - 789,000 - cremated corpses, according to my calculations...

Then poor Roberto posted the following at Tue Jul 25, 2017 5:06 pm:

Atigun:

Let's just stick with the more "reasonable" claim that ~750,000 were gassed and buried before the order was given to exhume and cremate the cadavers.

Poor confused Roberto:

There's no reason to "stick" with that number. The 1942 number borne out by solid evidence (the Höfle Telegram) is - 713,555.

So again, on - Tue Jul 25, 2017 at 4:54 pm poor Roberto used the figure of - 789,000 - but just six minutes later, at - 5:06 pm - poor confused Roberto was using a figure that was - 75,445 - lower. (About 10%)



So for those of you who are keeping score at home, poor confused Roberto has gone from - 713,555 - to - 726,441 - to - 789,000 - and back down to - 713,555.



Oh what a tangled web we weave, huh Roberto?

[CWhite]

Hannover:

And those alleged mass graves are claimed to be in existence today, but Roberto, nor anyone else can actually show us any excavations and the alleged massive remains of an alleged 700,000 - 900,000 Jews. The Los Angeles Coliseum holds a mere 90,000 people, yet Roberto cannot show us the claimed 700,000, - 900,000 remains of Jews that are said to be still buried at Treblinka.

Roberto:

No, I cannot. That would require a complete excavation of all Treblinka mass graves (after removing the memorial stones and their foundation to gain access to where most of these graves probably are located), separating the cremation remains from the soil they are mixed with (assuming that this is possible), quantifying the cremation remains, estimating how many human beings they are likely to correspond to considering the degree of cremation that the remains suggest, and taking photographs of all cremation remains thus quantified. That would be over 5,000 metric tons and over 10,000 cubic meters of cremation remains assuming - 789,000 - cremated corpses, according to my calculations...

"Assuming that it is possible" to "separate the cremation remains from the soil they are mixed with"?



On "that other site" we find this gem:

The proven liar Roberto:

And this gentleman seems to have collected a lot of teeth and/or bone fragments on the Treblinka site, presumably prior to the building of the memorial.

Oh what a tangled web we weave - huh Roberto?

[CWhite]

Well, poor Roberto continues to entertain on "that other site:"

Before I get to poor confused Roberto's latest holohoaxland claim, let me remind everyone what he said about Sobibor just a few days ago:

Check out these hilarious lies by muehlenkamp:

Greg Gerdes wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 21, 2017 11:15 am

Roberto, do you deny that the 16 so-called “huge mass graves” of Sobibor can be seen on page 7 (figure 6) of this link here:

http://sobibor.info.pl/wp-content/uploa%20...%20n-2013.pdf

and are numbered by The N.A.F.H. as follows:

1 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #1 / 49

2 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #2 / 50

"Memory Hill" (AKA the - "mound of ashes / remains") = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #3 / 51

3/4 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #4 / 52

5 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #5 / 53

6 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #6 / 54

7 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #7 / 55

8 (8/15) = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #8 / 56

9 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #9 / 57

10 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #10 / 58

11 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #11 / 59

12 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #12 / 60

13 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #13 / 61

14 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #14 / 62

15 (8/15) = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #15 / 63

16 = Sobibor “huge mass grave” #16 / 64

Roberto's answer: No

Roberto:

Exactly, I don't deny that at all

So on Fri Jul 21, 2017 at 11:15 am, Roberto, in one thread on "that other site" admitted that there are 16 alleged Sobibor graves shown on this map here:




But just three hours earlier, in another thread on "that other site" poor confused Roberto said there were only 8:

by Roberto » Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:36 am

Greg Gerdes wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 21, 2017 8:16 am

Roberto,

Is it known - beyond reasonable doubt - that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have actually located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves within the boundaries of each of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Roberto's answer: Yes.

Well then Robeto, how many total discernable / measurable extant mass graves within the boundaries of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps have been proven - beyond reasonable doubt - by legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators to actually exist?

Total - ?

Break it down:

Belzec - ?

Chelmno - ?

Sobibor - ?

Treblinka II - ?

Roberto:

Respectively 33, 4 (plus 11 ash disposal pits) and 8 for the first three. As concerns Treblinka I don't know the number of probable or certain burial pits that CS-C stated to have found and she has provided no further details, but there's no reason to assume that she lied and her reported finds are entirely plausible in view of other available evidence.

So poor confused Roberto changed his Sobibor answer 100% in just three hours!



So is the answer 8 or 16 - or some other figure today - Roberto?



Nope - no siree - no reasonable doubts what-so-ever about the phantom "huge mass graves" of Sobibor that Roberto alleges he can prove - "beyond a reasonable doubt" - that can change in number by 100% in just three hours!

What reasonable person could have any doubts about such a degree of certainty?

And what follows is poor confused Roberto's answer to this question:

So is the answer 8 or 16 - or some other figure today - Roberto?

And what do we find on "that other site" today?

by Roberto » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:55 am

As Sobibór, as I have already pointed out, the number of graves should not be sixteen - but 12

So he went from 16 down to 8 and then back up to 12 - in just a matter of days!

You can't make this stuff up!



And, get this - he's cravenly trying to pretend that that these two excavated graves (and two others that have been proven with the utmost certainty):



are not identified on the map above - even after he admitted it just a couple day ago!

[CWhite]

OMG - if you thought that Roberto's lying couldn't get any worse than what I just proved in the above post, you haven't seen anything yet!



#47 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: Zero.

#48 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

And Roberto's single numeric answer is: Zero.

Now remember, just the other day he answer the following question thusly:

Roberto, Is it known - beyond reasonable doubt - that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have actually located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves within the boundaries of each of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Roberto's answer: Yes.

However, he follows up with the above - zero - answers with this admission:

Archaeological surveys that identified mass graves at Belzec, Sobibór and Chelmno (and also at T-II...) can be reasonably assumed to fulfill the "conclusively documented methodology" requirement...

And then he makes this statement:

in none of these surveys... were human remains unearthed from mass graves

Which is the exact opposite of what he's been alleging for the last 20 years!

Like I said before - you can't make this stuff up!



Greg Gerdes has poor Roberto so cowed and confused that he doesn't know which end is up.

[CWhite]

And let's not forget what poor confused Roberto's buddy Nessie has alleged about the so-called "huge mass graves" of Sobibor:

Nessie:

Once the bodies had been cremated they were dumped back into pits... The contents of the pits are still at the camps... CS-C, Kola and Haimi have said they have found graves containing remains... Science show us the pits are irregularly shaped.... The archaeological work done has been scrutinised, cited and accepted by other archaeologists... I do have criminal investigatory, legal and court experience. I also have a degree in history.

Hanna Hasbara's questions to Nessie:

When you say "with the utmost certainty" - is that the same level of certainty that you use to claim 16 extant "huge mass graves" have been located / proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Sobibor camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "using the scientific method" - is that the same method that you use to claim - with the utmost certainty - that 16 extant "huge mass graves" have been located / proven to exist within the boundary of the Sobibor camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "burial site" - are you including the total volume of all 16 “huge mass graves” that you claim - with the utmost certainty - have been located / proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Sobibor camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

When you say "prove" - do you mean prove with the same standard of proof that you use to claim - with the utmost certainty - that 16 extant "huge mass graves" have been proven to exist - via the scientific method - within the boundary of the Sobibor camp - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes

Can you, with the utmost certainty and using the scientific method prove that Sobibor is not the burial site of at least 201,000 jews - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: No as it does contain at least that number of remains


SFinesilver's questions to Nessie:

#27 - Is it known - with the utmost certainty - that; legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have actually located / proven the existence of numerous discernable / measurable extant mass graves within the boundaries of each of the Belzec, Chelmno, Sobibor and Treblinka II camps - Yes. - or - No. - ??

Nessie's - Yes. - or - No. - answer: Yes.

#47 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed scientifically verified human remains; is no less than __?__.

Nessie's single numeric answer: 16

#48 - The MAXIMUM number of the 16 claimed / alleged / insinuated - discernable / measurable extant graves of Sobibor identified by The N.A.F.H. that you can currently prove - with the same standard of proof applied in U.S. criminal courts - that have actually been located / proven to exist in which legitimate archaeologists / forensic investigators have, via bona fide, verifiably honest and conclusively documented methodology - literally unearthed the remains of at least 19 people; is no less than __?__.

Nessie's single numeric answer: 16

[CWhite]

So now we have to update poor confused Roberto's allegations about the number of "huge mass graves" at Sobibor:

In just a few days, he's gone from 16 down to 8 and then back up to 12 and now - all the way back down to - ZERO!



You can't make this stuff up!

(But poor Roberto can! )

[CWhite]

Roberto:

For what can be a more effective means to fight "Revisionism" than bringing the contents of the mass graves to the surface, ...As I already said in my previous update, the former would be a deadly blow to "Revisionism"...archaeologists can take advantage of the work done in 2001 by Prof. Andrzej Kola. In an article recently brought to my knowledge, written in 2001 for a bulletin of the Rada ochrony pamieci walk i meczenstwa ("Council for Protection of the Memory of Fighting and Martyrdom", a semi-official Polish entity that is in charge of memorials), Prof. Kola described the location and essential features of the mass graves:

...

Grave no 3 is located in the south- western part of hectare 11 and north - western part of hectare 17. It was excavated by 17 drills. Horizontally, it's irregular, measuring around 20 x 12 m - with its longer side in NS position. The biggest part of the grave is located under north - western part of the memorial. It’s up to 5.80 m deep. In bottom layers, the grave is bony, with human remains in wax- fat transformation. The upper layers are a mixture of burnt body remains with layers of lime stone, sand and charcoal. The northern part of the grave is located near to northern part of the grave no 4. The more precise location of the graves requires additional research.

Grave no 4. It’s a grave with significant size, located in southern part of hectare 11, as well as northern and central parts of hectare 18. It was excavated by 78 drills. Horizontally, in NS position, it measures 70 x 20-25 m with the depth of around 5m. In bottom layers the grave is bony, with human remains in wax- fat transformation. The upper layers are a mixture of burnt body remains with layers of lime stone, sand and charcoal.

Grave no 5. It’s not a very vast grave, located in the north-western part of hectare 18. It was excavated by 7 drills. Horizontally, it's irregular, measuring at least 10 – 12 m, with its depth up to 4.90 m. In its bottom layers the grave is bony, with human remains in wax-fat transformation. In the upper layers – burnt body remains.

Grave no 6. It’s located in the central part of hectare 18, south from grave no 5. It was excavated by 22 drills. Horizontally, it’s irregular, measuring at least 15 x 25 m, with its depth up to 3.05 m. In its bottom layers the grave is bony, with human remains in wax-fat transformation. The upper layers - burnt body remains.

Grave no 7. Location of body burning activity, measuring at least 10 x 3 m, with its depth up to 0.90 m, in the central part of hectare 18, around 10-12 m south from the southern side of grave 4. The vast majority of burnt body remains were found in 6 drills. Around, vast ground transformation of an uncertain genesis. Only because of the burnt body remains found, the structure was thought of as a grave. In order to state the function of the place more accurately, further archaeological research needs to be conducted.


http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/10/mass-graves-at-sobibor-10th-update.html

How could Kola have been able to "described the essential features of the mass graves" without "bringing the contents of the mass graves to the surface" / unearthing them - huh Roberto?

Oh what a tangled web Roberto weaves.

Poor Roberto, Mr. Gerdes has him so cornered, cowed and confused, he doesn't know which end is up.