T4 euthanasia gassing?

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T4 euthanasia gassing?

Postby comrade seinfeld » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:37 am)

The need to develop an efficient, cost-effective means of mass-murder
presented something of a challenge. Train crashes were staged, explosives
were set off in bunkers filled with Russian psychiatric patients, and so on,
but all these initiatives were found wanting in one way or another. The
Nazis finally hit on carbon monoxide gas-poisoning, using rooms outfitted
with fake shower heads. An efficient transport system was organized, with
regional holding asylums channeling patients to six large, relatively remote
castles that were converted to the first killing centers.
Hartheim Castle, the center for Austria, was a site where more than
18,000 mentally ill and handicapped people were killed. It proved so
effective that several thousand prisoners from a nearby concentration camp
were also gassed there. Now it is a residential complex, except for the fake
shower room which was recently made into a memorial. Ironically, a brand


The above quote is taken from
http://www.uffl.org/vol%207/jlamonica7.pdf and is in relation to the supposed homicidal gassing of the T4 euthanasia program. Another quotation from the above is:

Other films were not intended for public distribution. They took as their
audience the staffs of the euthanasia centers. There was a continuing need
to indoctrinate the perpetrators of the slaughter in its proper conduct and
execution. Most of these films were destroyed by the Nazis before the end
of the War. Some of the original raw footage was mislabeled and sat
undiscovered in the basement of the East German Archives in Potsdam
until 1990 when British scholar Michael Burleigh stumbled across it. The
scripts were also found, and they indicate that footage had been shot
through a porthole of the early gas chambers while people were actually
being gassed and that this footage was intended to be included in the
finished films. Although this particular footage has never been recovered,


There is a general push to make out that the T4 personnel, who testified at the end of the war that gassing was utilised in the T4 program, were deliberately chosen for their skills in the supposed homicidal gassing of the Jews. However, there appears to be little or no concrete evidence for such gassing in the T4 program, and, analagous to the gas chamber execution program in America, they would have been more likely to have gassed themselves!

What I would like, therefore, is some information in relation to this Hartheim Castle, and, also, if possible, if there were any incriminating films made involving gassing. I would imagine that the T4 personnel, if they were employed in the Eastern concentration camps, would have been used to apply lethal injections or other non-gassing methods in relation to those the SS wanted to eliminate for various reasons, but not necessarily race extermination -- any comments on that?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Jun 07, 2004 2:51 am)

The entire fake showers, gassing sequence gives the lie away. Why would the Germans need to deceive the mentally and terminally ill into thinking they were about to get a shower in order to gas them?...as if they could think or resist at all. Makes no sense as usual.

It's a pathetic attempt to establish a 'logical sequence of events' that allegedly led to gassing Jews, which Revisionist have thoroughly debunked. It's a desperate 'retrofit' of the absurd fake showers, gassing claims.

As for Hartheim, there is zero evidence for gassings, no thorough forensic reports have ever shown evidence for gassings there or anywhere else.

According the Simon Wiesenthal, Franz Ziereis (the former commandant of Mauthausen/Hartheim) made a death bed "confession" which absurdly claimed **4,000,000** were gassed to death with carbon monoxide at the nearby Hartheim satellite in the Mauthausen complex. 1. It's another embarrassing, utterly impossible lie from Wiesenthal.
That's the problem with lies, keeping them all straight is difficult.
1. source: 'KZ Mauthausen', Simon Wiesenthal, 1946

No doubt there was a euthanasia program for the hopelessly physically & mentally ill in Germany. Legal euthanasia/mercy killings occur in most countries.

There are examples of testimony from a trial in Munich by a nurse, I believe, in which she testifies of being coerced to make false statements. I'll look for it.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:03 am)

According the Simon Wiesenthal, Franz Ziereis (the former commandant of Mauthausen/Hartheim) made a death bed "confession"


That must have been very convenient for them. I hope most people are very skeptic to these so-called "death bed" confessions
<?php if ($Holocaust == false ) {deny_repeatedly(); } else { investigate(); } ?>
Homage to Catalin Haldan

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:24 pm)

Here is more info. from an online source, which I assume believes in the Hartheim story. It would seem that the information they provide shoots down their own assertions, have a look. Images & comments follow.
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Hartheim/index.html
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Hartheim/ ... eport.html
Hartheim Castle Gas Chamber
The Second Leuchter Report
Fred Leuchter & Robert Faurisson

INTRODUCTION

In March of this year (1989), I was asked by Mr. Ernst Zündel of Toronto, Canada, to investigate three (3) alleged execution gas chambers and crematoria in Germany and Austria. These locations, allegedly operated by the Germans in World War II, were Dachau, in Germany, and Mauthausen and Hartheim Castle, both near Linz, Austria.

The findings of these investigations and forensic analyses at Dachau, Mauthausen and Hartheim were to result in an engineering report and forensic study on the efficacy of these aforementioned facilities to function as execution gas chambers. Although these facilities seem now accepted by many established historians to have never functioned as execution gas chambers, Mr. Zündel wanted to dispel any future doubts and scientifically prove beyond any question whether these facilities were or were not used, and if they could ever have been utilized, as gas execution facilities. Resultant to Mr. Zündel's direction, I undertook this scientific investigation and evaluation. On Sunday, April 9th of this year, I arrived at Dachau with the following team: Carolyn Leuchter as secretary/technician; Dr. Robert Faurisson, advisor and consultant; Mark Weber, historian and author of contemporary European history; Tijuda Rudolf, interpreter; Steven Devine, technician; Eugen Ernst, cinematographer, and Kenneth Ernst, assistant cinematographer. The following day, Monday, April 10th, we inspected Mauthausen and Hartheim Castle, near Linz, Austria. This report and my findings are resultant to these investigations conducted at Dachau, Mauthausen and Hartheim.

Purpose

The purpose of this report, and the investigations antecedent to it, is to determine whether the alleged gas chambers at three (3) specific locations, one (1) in Germany and two (2) in Austria, specifically, Dachau, Mauthausen and Hartheim Castle, respectively, could have operated in any manner resulting in single or multiple gas executions. Although cognizant of the fact that many established historians presently seem to concur that none of these installations ever functioned as a gas execution facility, the author is also aware that immediately after American capture of these locations during World War II a mass gas execution function was ascribed to these facilities, an assertion which was widely published in the international mass media at the time. It is to eliminate any further doubt or question that this investigation was undertaken and this report written.

The purpose includes the investigation and on-site inspection of physical facilities, design of these facilities and a description of the alleged gassing procedures utilized at the alleged executions. The purpose also includes estimates of the maximum number of inclusions (persons) who could possibly have fit into these alleged gas chambers and estimated venting times. This purpose does not include a determination of any numbers of persons who died or were killed by means other than gassing, or as to whether an actual "Holocaust" occurred. It, further, is not the intent of this author to redefine "Holocaust" in historical terms, but simply to supply scientific evidence and information obtained at the actual sites and to render an opinion based on all available scientific, engineering and quantitative data as to the purpose and usages of the alleged execution gas chambers and crematory facilities at the investigated locations.

Background

The principal investigator and author of this report is an engineer and a specialist on design and fabrication of execution hardware and specifically has worked on and designed hardware in the United States used in the execution of condemned persons and by means of hydrogen cyanide gas ("Zyklon B" gas).

The investigator has inspected the alleged execution gas chambers in Poland and is the author of the report on these facilities: An Engineering Report on the Alleged Execution Gas Chambers at Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek, Poland (1988), Samisdat Publishers Ltd. The author has been recognized by a Canadian court as an expert on gas chamber technology, and has testified as to the non-existence of execution gas chamber facilities at these sites.

The investigator has inspected the facilities at Dachau, in Germany, and Mauthausen and Hartheim Castle, in Austria, made measurements and taken forensic samples. Further, he purchased official printed brochures published and offered publicly for sale at the three (3) museum sites and reviewed this literature. He also reviewed the procedural literature on delousing with hydrogen cyanide ("Zyklon B") gas.

Scope

The scope of this report includes a physical inspection and quantitative data obtained at Dachau, Mauthausen and Hartheim, literature obtained at the three (3) museum sites, and a consideration of forensic samples taken at Mauthausen. For reasons explained below, no samples were removed from Dachau or Hartheim. Further, data on the design of U.S. gas chambers and the operational protocol utilized in gas executions in the United States coming from the investigator's own personal knowledge and experience in the field, as well as knowledge gained in the investigation of the alleged Polish gas chambers, were utilized in the production of this report. Additionally, operational procedure and equipment utilized at delousing facilities were considered. Utilizing all of the above data, the investigator has limited the focus of this study to a determination of the capability of the alleged gas chambers in question at Dachau, Mauthausen and Hartheim Castle to accomplish the mass murder (extermination) of human beings by the use of "Zyklon B" (hydrogen cyanide) gas.

Synopsis and Findings

After a study of available literature, examination and evaluation of the existing facilities at Dachau, Mauthausen and Hartheim Castle, with expert knowledge of the essential design criteria for gas chamber operation and the expert knowledge gained in the production of the previous study on the alleged gas chambers in Poland, the author finds no evidence that any of these installations, i.e., Dachau, Mauthausen or Hartheim Castle, frequently alleged to have been gas execution facilities, was ever utilized as such, and further finds, that because of the design and fabrication of these installations, they could not ever have been utilized as execution gas chambers.

Methodology

The procedures involved in the study and forensic analysis which resulted in this report were as follows:

1. A general background study of available material.
2. An on-site inspection and forensic examination of the facilities in question, which included the taking of physical data (measurements and construction information), and a considered removal of physical samples (tile and mortar) which were returned to the United States for chemical analysis.
3. A consideration of recorded and visual (on-site) logistic data.
4. Data acquired on the previous study of the alleged gas chambers in Auschwitz I, Birkenau and Majdanek, Poland.
5. A compilation of the acquired data.
6. An analysis of the acquired information and comparison of this information with recognized and proven design, procedural and logistic information and the requirements for the design, fabrication and operation of actual gas chambers currently in use in the United States.
7. A consideration of the chemical analysis of the materials acquired on-site.
8. Conclusions based on the acquired evidence.

THE LEUCHTER REPORT

The Leuchter Report, which formed the basis of the author's expert testimony at the trial of Ernst Zündel, Toronto, Ontario, given on April 20, 1988, is a study of the existing alleged gassing facilities in Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek, Poland. This report contains the definitive data for gas chamber application purposes for hydrogen cyanide, "Zyklon B." fumigation design and procedures, execution gas chamber design and protocol, U.S. gas chambers, medical and toxic effects of hydrogen cyanide, a brief history of the alleged German gas chambers with an emphasis on design characteristics, and a consideration of crematory technology, including a discussion of maximum cremation rates. Additionally, there is a discussion of forensic considerations of cyano-compounds and crematories.

The materials contained in the above paragraphs of the Leuchter Report (1988) are a necessary complement to this report.

The Sites: Dachau, Mauthausen and Hartheim Castle

These sites are considered separately and together, in that Dachau and Mauthausen have been at times described as camps which supplied prisoners to the Hartheim Castle site where they were allegedly executed.

Dachau

[....]

Mauthausen

[....]

Hartheim Castle

This facility consists of a masonry room adjacent to a tower of a centuries old castle. This castle was donated by the monarchy to the mental health service of Austria and was also placed under the control of the German Government when it acquired control of the Austrian Government and the mental health service. The facilty had been utilized as a mental hospital and under German control it continued as such. Allegedly, mass gas executions were conducted at this location on prisoners transferred from Dachau and Mauthausen for this purpose.

The alleged gas chamber was a lower level room adjacent to one of the castle towers. This room has an area of 192 square feet and a volume of 1,728 cubic feet. It has a vaulted ceiling of some 8.9 feet at the highest point. The installation had one (1) door and one (1) window, although a rectangular aperture has now been made into an adjacent room. There are no facilities to inlet "Zyklon B" or evacuate the gas after use. The room now has been completely remodeled. It has recently plastered walls and ceiling. There are three (3) new floor surfaces, one on top of the other. Even the door has been changed to a modern conventional mental institution cell door with a shuttered view port. The window is alleged to have been original, but would leak gas if used for this purpose. Neither the door nor the window has any provision for gasketing. Allegedly, all gassing apparatus was removed by January, 1945. In truth, there was no gassing equipment in that the walls are very thick, as characteristic of castle architecture and construction, and not easily cut to accommodate the installation of gas vents or gas inlet ports. It and the adjacent room contain memorial plaques to those who allegedly died in gassings here. The castle is presently used as an apartment building.

It appears by construction that this facility would not lend itself for use as a gas execution installation, the walls being too thick for the installation of gassing equipment. Certainly, because of the construction, any changes would be visible, and not easy to conceal. There is no provision for a gas stack for evacuation of the gas-air mixture and no way to install one. The window would certainly leak, allowing large volumes of deadly gas to escape. No samples were taken at this location because of the extensive remodelling to the facility which decidedly would obscure any test results.

For the record, the alleged gas chamber would have held only some 24 persons, utilizing the nine (9) square foot rule. Without an exhaust system this room would require at least one week to vent (refer to Dachau).

Resultant to an in-depth investigation of this installation, this investigator categorically states that in his best engineering opinion this facility was not ever utilized for, and could never have supported, gas executions. The actual use of this room in unknown to the investigator. Based on a comparison with its mirror image on the other side of the facility, it could have been a store room.

There are no crematoria extant at this locaiton.

It is perplexing to note that the official museum literature states that Dachau and Mauthausen, both having facilities equal to, or better than those at Hartheim Castle, sent inmates to Hartheim for gassing. It is unclear why this should occur since Hartheim's alleged facility would have been so difficult to construct, was so small and so distant from Dachau (200km). Based on all the available evidence it becomes abundantly clear that no gassing facilities ever existed at any of these locations.

Specialized Hardware: Non-existence

In all the author's investigations in Poland, Germany and Austria, hardware or constuction remarkable to gas chambers has never been found. There are no stacks of the necessary height, no ventilators, no gas generators, no intake air preheaters, no special paint or sealants on walls, floors or ceilings, no safety devices for the operators, and no coherent design consistently utilized throughout the alleged gas chambers. It is inconceivable that the Germans, having the highly developed technology utilized on the delousing chambers, would never have applied this technology to the alleged execution gas chambers.

Conclusion

After reviewing all the material and inspecting all of the sites at Dachau, Mauthausen and Hartheim Castle, this investigator has determined that there were no gas execution chambers at any of these locations. It is the best engineering opinion of this investigator that the alleged gas chambers at the above inspected sites could not have then been, or now be, utilized or seriously considered to function as execution gas chambers.

Prepared this 15th day of June, 1989, at Malden, Massachusetts.

- Fred A. Leuchter Associates, Inc.
Fred A. Leuchter, Jr.
Chief Engineer

Image

map showing alleged 'gas chamber'
Image

the so called 'gas chamber'
Image
Image

Image
The carbon monoxide gas pipe shown in the photo above is a reconstruction. The Nazis brought concentration camp prisoners from Mauthausen to remove all the gassing apparatus and the fake shower heads from the ceiling in December 1944 and by January 1945, the gas chamber room was restored to its original condition. The brick wall where the gas pipe enters the room is at least two feet thick.

Curious, it's always "a reconstruction".
The absurd alleged CO bottled gas has never been shown to exist.
And why don't they show evidence of the Nazi 'restoration' to this very old building?.. It would have been obvious, if true.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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T4 euthanasia gassing?

Postby comrade seinfeld » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:13 am)

Hannover said:
There are examples of testimony from a trial in Munich by a nurse, I believe, in which she testifies of being coerced to make false statements. I'll look for it.


There is a link from an exterminationist site which might be helpful:
http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/alexrep6.htm#Huber

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:45 am)

As I stated, there is no doubt there was a euthanasia program. It by definition means 'killing', so what? You will find such killings in practically all countries. But the absurdities contained in the link given by seinfeld are completely unsubstantiated. We do not have verbatim text to scrutinize, merely the writings of who knows who. See my previous posts in this thread.

However .... in the Munich trial the accused Erdmann stated:
"The interrogating official screamed at me to place me under penal arrest to break me if I don’t say such and such”

Ofcourse the site that seinfeld linked to conveniently says nothing of this statement.

There is no reason to doubt that others were coerced to say whatever the prosecutors/interrogators desired. In lieu of the lack of supporting evidence, that is the logical conclusion.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Feb 09, 2005 10:51 am)

I decided to look into the euthanasia subject after watching a programme about the "Deaf Holocaust" on BBC2 the other night. Apparently 70,XXX people were killed under the program and it was stopped after an outcry from the Catholic church and the German population. It appears that the euthanasia program is actually rather well documented, unlike the extermination camps in general.

Something that occured to me while reading this quote:

The Nazis brought concentration camp prisoners from Mauthausen to remove all the gassing apparatus and the fake shower heads from the ceiling in December 1944 and by January 1945


If the Nazis went to the trouble of taking inmates from Mauthausen to dismantle the euthanasia gas chambers, then why does an alleged gas chamber still exist at Mauthausen camp itself? This defies all logic and is further proof that the Mauthausen chamber was built later by the allies.

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Postby grapple » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Feb 09, 2005 12:55 pm)

One of the many problems I have with the Holocaust story is why would the Germans use fake showers? They would have been better off using real showers since if it was Zyklon B being used they could turn on the showers and help wash away the HCN. Also no matter what kind of gas was used real showers could have been used to wash away the bodily fluids that would have been all over the floor of the gas chamber after a mass execution. It would be hard to fool people that they were going to take a shower when the whole area would smell like death and bodily fluids.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Wed Feb 09, 2005 3:04 pm)

Grapple: good point. I never thought of that. Yes, let's install all this piping and shower heads, and then afterwards we'll haul buckets of water in here to clean everything, since the showerheads are fake.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:11 pm)

No doubt there was a euthanasia program for the hopelessly physically & mentally ill in Germany. Legal euthanasia/mercy killings occur in most countries.


Which countries?

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:41 pm)

I was reading just today about euthanasia of disabled children in Holland.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=2921

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Feb 11, 2005 10:02 pm)

While I don't doubt euthanasia with lethal injections or even gases, the idea of mass-gassings is absurd. The pieces of pipe and other props in wannabe Holocaust themeparks like Hartheim Castle proves that, in my opinion.

What I think accounts for the stories of bottled carbon monoxide, a ridiculous theory of mass-gassing, is the use of Cartox or T-gas as a disinfectant, and still used in hospitals today. T-gas is ethylene oxide and Cartox is bottled carbon dioxide and ethylene dioxide. T-gas can also be dissolved in alcohol and used to disinfect surfaces, like a morgue, or sprayed in aerosol form. Certainly this was used at Majdanek and practically any hospital. I am gathering German wartime literature on this.

:D

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Postby Hotzenplotz » 1 decade 4 years ago (Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:50 pm)

I found this map which shows the euthanasia gas chambers according to the Holocaust Memorial Museum:

Image

Six gas chambers, but of course none was found.

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Postby Juan » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sat Jun 18, 2005 2:51 pm)

Where is the documentation citing 70.000+ killed by euthanasia.

Where is the documentation that says that those were not solicited by relatives/the patient himself.

, but as I've read about, it was a very limited experience, solicited always by relatives or the same patient and never forced on the subject.

And the fact that the Catholics and the people stopped it dead says a lot about the "totalitarianism" and "brutality" of the "nazi dictatorship".

Of course I'm totally against the violation of the sanctity of life by any means, except maybe on cases of self-defence or application of the death penalty (with reservations).

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Postby Johng » 1 decade 4 years ago (Mon Jun 20, 2005 5:30 am)

A great deal of evidence is available on the euthanasia programme
see below
British Medical Journal 2003;327:832 (11 October)
Nazi's euthanasia files are made public
Heidelberg
Annette Tuffs
For the first time, files relating to the 200 000 euthanasia crimes of the Nazi regime from 1939 to 1944 are available online in a central databank. The German Federal Archive in Berlin has gathered information from almost 300 archives in Germany, Austria, Poland, and the former Czechoslovakia.
The research project was partly financed by the German Medical Association. Speaking at the press launch in Berlin, the association's honorary president, Karsten Vilmar, once more admitted the guilt of German medicine, which had taken an active part in the euthanasia.
In 1990 about 70 000 previously unknown documents dating from the Nazi era, which had been preserved in the central archives of the Ministry for State Security, were found. The secret service of the former German Democratic Republic had kept them for decades without following up the crimes.
The new databank also contains files from many other sources. Altogether, about 200 000 people were killed in gas chambers, with drugs, or through starvation because they were considered handicapped, socially unacceptable, or mentally ill and were therefore deemed worth killing, according to Nazi ideology. The databank, which is in German, can be accessed by relatives of victims of euthanasia and historians. However, the names of victims are not listed.
Rediscovered files have already led to the investigation, starting in 2000, of a former member of Jena University.
Eighty eight year old Rosemarie Albrecht, former director of the Ear Nose and Throat Hospital and former dean of the medical faculty in Jena, is accused of taking part in the killing of at least 159 women and 11 children when in 1940 she worked as a junior doctor in a psychiatric hospital in Stadtroda, Thuringia.
Legal investigations are proving difficult because of a lack of witnesses and because knowledge of the victims and their fate is scarce.
Rosemarie Albrecht rejects the accusations and claims that she was only looking after the small percentage of the patients in the psychiatric hospital who were considered treatable and that she did not know what happened to the majority of "untreatable" patients in the ward, who were looked after by nursing staff.
The central databank of the German Federal Archives is at
http://www.bundesarchiv.de/findbuecher/ ... infueh.php
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/ ... 7419/832-a
© 2003 BMJ Publishing Group Ltd ---------- END ---------


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