Mass graves found at Nazi camp [?]

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Mass graves found at Nazi camp [?]

Postby Haldan » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:52 am)

Researchers have discovered seven mass graves at the Sobibor Nazi death camp in north-eastern Poland.

The research team, which began its government-sponsored investigation in the summer, said the graves - the largest of which is about half the size of a football pitch - contain charred remains.


This is all they can produce:

Image

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1673471.stm

They demolished all the buildings and tried to wipe out evidence of the camp by planting trees over the site.


Has this been debunked? Sounds absurd to me, but alot of people apparently believe it.

I asked for the charred remains and all I get back is
As for the charred remains, do you expect a photograph to be included for every point they make?


Comments?
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:05 pm)

This is old news and has been thoroughly debunked. This man Kola is an embarassing charlatan. Search him here and see: Kola.
also search: Sobibor ... Reinhardt

Take note of their response:
As for the charred remains, do you expect a photograph to be included for every point they make?

What a weasely strawman deflection. You're not asking for a photo for every point, simply a photo of the alleged remains. Their response is indicative of the lack of substance in the story.

This story is derived from the same source in this thread where the claims are easily dispatched. Have a look at:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=57

What anyone should expect from a real forensic excavation would look like what the Germans did at the Communist mass murder site at Katyn:
see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=758

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Temporary on hold » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:02 pm)

Some 250,000 people, mostly Jews, are thought to have died in the camp.

Holocaust denial


"Some crazy voices have denied the existence of the events of that period," said Mr Bartoszewski, a survivor of the Auschwitz concentration camp.


Hidden atrocities


In addition to the graves, the researchers also found 1,700 bullets in the corner of a barracks, which they believe mean that the Nazis executed the prisoners there.

Andrzej Kola, an archaeology professor supervising the study said the barracks may have also served as a gas chamber but further investigation was necessary.



I'm surprised nobody caught the internal conflict in the article. As usual, the math and methods don't match.

First we see that 250,000 Jews were killed in the camp. The only forensic offered is the alleged graves and 1,700 bullets.

I don't endorse war actions personally, but understand if you kill camp guards in an escape attempt you can pretty much expect to be shot. So, we can subtract a few of those 1,700 bullets for those shot for the escape.

OK, now we have the remaining number from that 250,000 to account for.

HEY! What do you know! Kola suddenly speculates that one of the barracks "was possibly a gas chamber".

This, of course, comes from Kola's strict forensic obedience and standards. The need to turn a typical wooden barracks, that couldn't possibly have served as a mass execution chamber, into one couldn't possibly have come from the fact that he needs to account for how the other 248,000 died...

The problem with this is that 99.9% will just read the surface and believe what they are being subtly steered towards...

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Postby Temporary on hold » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:43 pm)

The detainees were told they were going to be deloused and were led to the "showers." These were in fact gas chambers linked up to the exhaust systems of large ***diesel engines*** of the sort used in U-boats: it was a crude method of extermination; the victims, many of them children, often took up to 30 minutes to die.



First it is captured Russian tank diesel engines, now it is critically-needed submarine engines. Don't these people ever wonder why others (crazy voices) doubt these stories?

Gauss deals with death by diesel exhaust. To keep it short, diesel burning is very incomplete and produces little carbon monoxide. As even the source admits above, it isn't a good means for mass extermination. People, think of the German reputation for science and engineering and ask yourself if they would have made such a stupid error as to use the worst possible method for mass extermination if that were their intention? It just doesn't wash.

Diesel combustion also passes a lot of oxygen as well. A 30 minute death rate would therefore be impossible. It would be more like many many hours, if at all.

I had a lengthy debate over diesel exhaust on another site. After forcing the holocaust supporter to admit the methods claimed were impossible he then came up with an obscure forensic document showing a victim who died of asphyxiation from the oily substances contained in diesel exhaust.

- Yep, "some took up to 30 minutes to die this way"...

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Jul 03, 2004 2:58 pm)

Dubhghall wrote:
In addition to the graves, the researchers also found 1,700 bullets in the corner of a barracks, which they believe mean that the Nazis executed the prisoners there.

Andrzej Kola, an archaeology professor supervising the study said the barracks may have also served as a gas chamber but further investigation was necessary.

"In a letter dated July 15, 1943, the head of the SS concentration camp system, Oswald Pohl, explained to Himmler that a center for dismantling captured Soviet ammunition could be set up at Sobibor without having to transform it into a concentration camp. Sobibor would remain a transit camp with a special section for dismantling ammunition. This correspondence (Nuremberg document file NO- 482) clearly shows that neither Himmler nor Pohl regarded Sobibor as an "extermination center." [2] These documents simply cannot be reconciled with the Holocaust portrayal of Sobibor."
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p173_Weber.html

fge

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Jul 03, 2004 8:21 pm)

For the sake of simplicity, I have reproduced the text of the link that I gave in my initial post to this thread. That link ... http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=57
is shown below.
-H.
======
Here is a story about alleged mass graves found at the alleged 'death camp' at Sobibor. Sobibor, it is alleged, was a site where hundreds of Jews thousands are said to have been gassed with diesel exhaust and cremated (please note that bodies do NOT vaporize when cremated).
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Sobibor/Scotsman.html
Read the story, comments follow:
Edinburgh, Monday, November 26, 2001

Mass Graves Confirm Sobibor Holocaust
Allan Hall
In Berlin
POLISH archaeologists have found mass graves at the Sobibor extermination camp -- damning evidence that gives the lie to Holocaust deniers.
Sobibor, one of the four main extermination camps of the Nazi regime, was evacuated and destroyed on the orders of the SS chief Heinrich Himmler in October 1943, after an uprising by inmates.
The British Holocaust denier David Irving claimed during his libel trial -- which he lost last year -- that he had never heard of the camp. In an exchange with a lawyer, he was asked about the existence of Nazi death camps in Poland and said: "Treblinka I am becoming uncertain about. Sobibor I know nothing of."
Like the three other extermination centres -- Belzec, Treblinka and Chelmno -- Sobibor was situated deep in Poland where an efficient rail network married to remote areas gave the Nazis the perfect means to build their human abattoirs. Sobibor was grassed over and reforested after the SS pulled out and has only recently been under forensic examination.
The discoveries of the seven mass graves will provide invaluable material for Holocaust academics about the numbers who died there.
According to official Polish accounts, 250,000 people were killed in Sobibor, which was opened in May 1942 and lies close to the eastern border with Ukraine. Most victims were from the Warsaw ghetto and died within hours of arriving there, although there was an adjacent work camp holding Russian prisoners of war.
The detainees were told they were going to be deloused and were led to the "showers." These were in fact gas chambers linked up to the exhaust systems of large ***diesel engines*** of the sort used in U-boats: it was a crude method of extermination; the victims, many of them children, often took up to 30 minutes to die.
"We uncovered seven mass graves with an average depth of 15ft. In them there were charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay. That means that in the final stage the victims were burned," said Andrzej Kola, an archaeologist. He said the largest grave measured 210ft by 75ft, the others 60ft by 75ft.
"We also found a hospital barracks. The people there were probably shot, as we found over 1,800 machine gun cartridges," Mr Kola said. "In the woods we found remnants of barbed wire, which enabled us to reconstruct the boundary of the camp."
Just 52 people survived Sobibor from the thousands sent there. Among them were some of the 300 who broke out of the camp on 14 October, 1943. Eighty were caught soon after escaping, but a handful survived the war.
Wladyslaw Bartoszewski, head of the Council for Remembrance of Struggle and Martyrdom and a former Polish foreign minister, said it was vital to gather evidence to refute the claims of revisionists seeking to deny the Holocaust.
"The work will continue. We have to confirm scientifically that this camp existed. There are crazy voices trying to deny the events of those years," said Mr Bartoszewski, who as a young man helped protect Jews in occupied Poland.
Franz Stangl, who later commanded the Treblinka death camp and was found guilty of helping slaughter 900,000 people there, mentioned the Sobibor camp in Gitta Sereny's 1974 biography Into That Darkness.
Sereny, who interviewed Stangl extensively for the book, wrote that 100,000 people died during the two months after the camp opened, when Stangl was posted there. The gas chamber equipment broke down and did not resume work until October.
A 1965 memorial at Sobibor reads: "In this place from May 1942 until October 1943 there existed a Hitler extermination camp. At this camp 250,000 Russian, Polish, Jewish and Gipsy prisoners were murdered."
In all six million Jews and a further six million "subhuman" enemies of the Third Reich were killed in the extermination plan. Although Auschwitz in Poland claimed the most -- more than a million -- it was not solely a death camp as prisoners worked in factories adjacent to the extermination centre.


Here we go again, the fraud is obvious.

- Where's the verifiable study?
Let's see data, let's see the dig, let's see the methodology for review...let's see a real, legit study; not unverified claims without proof.

- 'mass' graves?
Who, how & how many? People died from a variety of causes during the war; in the work camps disease was the prime cause. No indication of murder here, just graves that contained some cremated bodies (important with contagious diseases). How many bodies were there? Anything that would point to 250,000?...as is the standard assertion

- cartridges?
1. Yes, there was a war on and the soldiers at Sobibor had cartridges. Were they German cartridges? Were they spent?
2. Sobibor was used by the Germans to salvage captured Soviet ammo

- hospital?
For a death camp? That contradicts the story.

- Stangl? Sereny?
see Sereny's 'interview' debunked here: http://www.ukar.org/sereny02.shtml

- the 'denier' canard
No one denies the camp was there. It's the allegations that we question.

- gas chambers?
Where's the evidence for this?

- Jews were predominant victims?
So typical. That's said without establishing that the allegations about the camp are true in the 1st place.

- Jedwabne?
What they convienently fail to mention is that it's now known that it was NOT the Germans who did the killing (they were originally blamed....a la Katyn). What they don't say is that the numbers alleged about Jedwabne, as is usual, were highly exaggerated and more that likely caused by local resentment of Jewish communist butchery.

It's business as usual for the 'holocaust' Industry. They say anything and think they can get away with it.
===========
additional observer comments:

It appears that once the bubbles of air have been cut out from the report, archaeologists have excavated seven mass graves with an average depth of 15 feet. What, precisely, are we supposed to deduce from this figure? All we learn from it is that someone has dug a hole, or a series of holes, whose depth averages 15 feet. (Sorry to belabour the obvious; but so often, it's the obvious that seems to elude so many people when reading reports of this kind.) So what?
Since the late 17th Century, single graves in Britain have been traditionally dug to a depth of 6 feet. (For each body interred, roughly 108 cubic feet of earth is displaced.) But the report is careful to avoid any figure relating to the volume of contents of each hole.
Andrezj Kola is quoted in the report as saying, "We also found a hospital barracks." Did they really? What physical evidence of these alleged barracks actually remained? A few pieces of wood? Stencilled with a Red Cross, perhaps? Nope, none of that. That's not what Mr Kola is saying. What he's really saying is that they've dug up a tract of land (of unspecified size), from whose soil (from an unspecified depth) they've managed to unearth the nice round figure of 1,800 used machine-gun cartridges (of unspecified age).
What confirms the existence of a hospital barracks somewhere within this location, then? Well, someone said there was one. Hey, what more forensic evidence do you need?
I'm still waiting, rather impatiently, for evidence rather than conjecture.
=================
I notice that in an alleged excavation there is no mention of gas chambers with opening floors, in fact they give no evidence for gas chambers at all. What happened to the chlorine according to the alleged eyewitness? They give no evidence for the alleged 250,000. They give no evidence as to who, how, & how many were in the alleged mass graves. There is no verifiable study to consult, only an assertion of one.
=========================
absurd statements about Sobibor:

According to alleged eyewitness, Alexander Pechersky, gassings at Sobibor took place via a black heavy substance which exited in spirals from holes in the roof. Then the floor of the gas chamber opened
up, and the bodies fell directly into wagons placed in the basement.

From Entertainment Weekly:
"At the concentration camp in Sobibor, Poland, the Nazis assembled squawking schools of geese to cover the shrieks of inmates who were being gassed."

Another alleged eyewitness, Zelda Metz, talks of death via chlorine, and added... “then the floor opened automatically. The bodies fell into wagons on a railroad track which passed through the gas chambers and took the corpses to the ovens.”

I notice that in an alleged excavation there is no mention of gas chambers with opening floors, in fact they give no evidence for gas chambers at all. What happened to the chlorine according to the alleged eyewitness? They give no evidence for the alleged 250,000. They give no evidence as to who, how, & how many were in the alleged mass graves. There is no verifiable study to consult, only an assertion of one.

As for Sereny’s fraudulent interview of Stangl, see:
http://www.ukar.org/sereny02.shtml
==================
in addition:

In a letter dated July 15, 1943, the head of the SS concentration camp system, Oswald >Pohl, explained to Himmler that a center for dismantling captured Soviet ammunition could be set up at Sobibor without having to transform it into a concentration camp. Sobibor would remain a transit camp with a special section for dismantling ammunition.
This correspondence (Nuremberg document file NO- 482) clearly shows that neither Himmler nor Pohl regarded Sobibor as an "extermination center." These documents simply cannot be reconciled with the Holocaust portrayal of Sobibor.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p173_Weber.html

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:49 pm)

http://iqtesting.info/iqtest.exe
Where is the excavation report available? Has anyone ever been published? Perhaps only some article in Polish? I have tried to find out what has been published on this supposed excavations, but in vain. However, I don't speak Polish so efforts in searching for relevant texts in thatlanguage has been limited.

Does anyone here know anything about a possible Kola report on Sobibor?

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:34 pm)

Still haven't found zilch. No detailed article. No published report. Did the Polish "martyrologists" get cold feet after the Kola Report was shredded by Mattogno?

If someone knows anything about any kind of excavation report, please share the information. Perhaps Maly Jacek or someone fluent in Polish could do a google or database search in that langauge.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 1 year ago (Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:52 am)

This is apparently all the exterminationists over at deathcamps.org can show us as finds from the 2001 Sobibor excavations: four photos of rusty hair slides, broken glass, a guy at a hole with some bricks carelessly thrown at the ground in front of hime, and a piece barbed wire. Not exactly prime proof of the alleged mass murder by gas.

http://www.deathcamps.org/sobibor/finds.html

Where are the photos of the discovered mass graves that could contain 85 000 corpses? Or at least photos from core samples?

Where are the tons of ashes corresponding to the alleged figure of 250 000 victims?

If bricks where found where the gas chambers allegedly stood, I suppose it would be possible to know the approximate dimension of this building. What are they? The secondgas chamber building allegedly measured about 12x9 meters, the first (also of brick) about 5x12 m.

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Postby jnovitz » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:28 am)

This the Belzec report and vast claims of core drillings with ashes and human remains but not a single photo documenting these findings I have lost faith in these socalled investigations as being anything other than self-conscious exercises in deception.

Regards this photo
Image

Personally I have no objection to some bricks and bits of concrete being found at Sobibor.

I will simply note that the bricks and bits of concrete show no signs of being immersed in earth for 50 years.

Quite frankly, although the presence of these items has no particular evidential value to the presence or otherwise homicidal installations, I think these have been salted on to the site.

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:57 pm)

jnovitz wrote:
I will simply note that the bricks and bits of concrete show no signs of being immersed in earth for 50 years.



You won't necessarily see that either, if it's a bona fide Archaeological dig, they'll have "sorters" & "washers" on site, items will be found, removed, washed, sorted & then cataloged.

See this page dealing with the excavation of the "Garbage Pit" at Sachsenhausen, the area excavated over the pit was just 30 x 5.6 x 2-3 m deep, yet it yielded over 4,000 kg of items, Granted Sachsenhausen was in use for a much longer period then that of Belzec.

But my point is, wherever Human Habitation occurs there will be innumerable finds of every description, from Tunic buttons of the camp guards to items secreted by the inmates. a pile of bricks & concrete = nothing without other items to support the theory of Human Habitation of a site

Link to Sachsenhausen Excavation Site in German
http://ufg.geschichte.hu-berlin.de/site/lang__de/4322/Default.aspx
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.

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Postby jnovitz » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:35 am)

if it's a bona fide Archaeological dig, they'll have "sorters" & "washers" on site, items will be found, removed, washed, sorted & then cataloged.


Agreed, if it was a bona fida dig.

But it clearly isnt or they items would be sitting there in a big jumble on the edge.

they arent numbered, they arent catalogued, they arent bagged. It is just a heap of building detritus that has been brought in from somewhere else and heaped in the foreground of the site.

I would stress, just with the Kola report, these investigators are under no illusions about the nature of the site and what is required of them.

I would like to think these were idealistic, honest researchers who had located some brick foundations and genuinely, if mistakenly, believe that it is a gas chamber.

These researchers knew there was no gas chamber there and knew they would be required to bring their own "materials"

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 1 year ago (Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:36 am)

I'd like to see close ups of the Bricks, they appear to be very roughly made, not something you'd expect German Engineers would insist on for construction of an Air tight-Gas tight facility.

It's probably been pointed out before, but wouldn't these green 'pine fences' need to be replaced about every 3 weeks as they dry out & become brittle & brown & end up in a pile on the ground?

Would it not also lead to rather high deforestation of the surrounding area, not to mention having to form work parties from the inmates, giving them dangerous tools & having to provide an armed escort & also periodic roll calls to ensure that no one had slipped away while working in the forest?

Seems like a lot of effort to hide a camp, especially considering the Germans possessed Camo Nets & "Blind Screens".

In case you don't know, Blind Screens were used right up on the front lines, they were used to hide areas from observation & snipers & provided a safe area for troop movements, they were particularly useful when a village formed part of a defensive line, blind screens were strung out between the houses & in this way they rendered a particularly large area free from observation.
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.



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Postby jnovitz » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:08 am)

"I'd like to see close ups of the Bricks, they appear to be very roughly made, not something you'd expect German Engineers would insist on for construction of an Air tight-Gas tight facility. "

I think you are romantising german engineers somewhat.

As regards bona fida digs: I dont think they include smashing up bricks to seperate them into individual bricks and levering up bits of concrete.

I would expect that the bricks and concrete would be carefully uncovered and photographed in situ. There is no need to remove the foundations of the gas chamber....can you imagine the screams if someone proposed to do that at Auschwitz.

I suspect that the bricks were brought onto the site......OTOH I wouldnt surprised if they were still there. Perhaps in beautiful display case on an onsite museum or perhaps "reconstructed" (yeah, right) in the ground.

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 1 year ago (Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:27 pm)

jnovitz wrote:"I'd like to see close ups of the Bricks, they appear to be very roughly made, not something you'd expect German Engineers would insist on for construction of an Air tight-Gas tight facility. "

I think you are romantising german engineers somewhat.

.


I want to see if the bricks have been locally made, or if they were bought in specifically for the job, I would have expected just that from the Nazis who possessed the worlds largest Brickworks at Sachsenhausen.

that's probably one of the greatest potential myths the Holocaust believers missed out on, think of the milking potential of using the story of Bricks made at one Camp to construct Gas chambers at all the others!!
Taking Nazi efficiency to a whole new level.

You raise some good points regarding the bringing in of material for the dig (salting), but on the other hand I can't see a problem with a much older dwelling, foresters house or a Hunter's lodge being on site many years before WWII.
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.



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