1 - of course it is not fallacious to point out a person's qualifications. It only becomes fallacious when you say "therefore, they are correct/wrong" as a result of them. It's a pointless debate, as I said, I don't care to debate the qualifications of someone else.
2 - I do not dislike Jews, I have no idea where you got that idea. I pointed out many reasons above. The most obvious is the total lack of physical evidence (ferrocyanide residue) and lack of documentation. The *only* so-called "evidence" you have is a handful of cherry picked testimonies and some [likely] torture-induced "confessions" which contradict many other nazis who denied it. Fact is, we have "testimony" of people being gassed at Buchenwald, Dachau, and Bergen-Belsen but yet historians universally agree today that those testimonies were simply wrong. Further, the buildings alleged to have been used to gas jews would have been utterly terrible at the stated purpose. The nazis weren't that stupid, they also wouldn't have made it so difficult on themselves. They would have created a highly effective murder weapon to systematically eliminate millions of people. The buildings that are claimed to have been used for that purpose simply were inefficient. Even zyclon-B was a bad choice, and it was in short supply because they used it for delousing. Yes, Nazis hated Jews, but there is no reason to think "Final solution" meant killing them. In all the documents it means forced resettlement. You hate Naizs... therefore, the logical reason for your belief in the "Holocaust" story as alleged, despite 0 evidence for it, is your hatred of "Nazis".
3 - It is not "accepted fact" it is illegal to question in many places, hence why Irving was imprisoned. Also, in much of the world, the majority of people don't believe your supposed "accepted fact" -- see the Islamic world. You're literally pushing tinfoil-hat conspiracy nonsense. "They murdered 6 million Jews and destroyed all evidence" it's fucking insane, and the total and complete lack of physical evidence, which can not be destroyed, is quite telling. Every single document on the "Final Solution" defines it as resettlement/forced deportations... NOT genocide. How do you explain that *every single document* that mentions the "Final Solution [to the Jewish problem]" defines it as resettlement/deportations?
4 & 5 - You keep obsessing over alleged "proven facts" when I pointed out that at Auschwitz (just one example) many of the so-called "Homicidal gas chambers" were not destroyed. I also pointed out the same fact at Majdanek, the whole camp was basically intact. So this totally refutes your ridiculous point, by showing it is not true. Treblinka was not an "Extermination camp" it was a transit camp, that is why 3 independent excavations of the camp have utterly failed to substantiate the 870,000 number.
Sobibor - Calling an innocuous building a "gas chamber" does not prove that nazis gassed jews. I notice you fail to mention the excavation of Sobibor... Because it totally refutes the claim that 200-250,000 people were murdered there.
You claimed: "During the last days of operation at Belzec, all prior mass graves were unearthed by a mechanical digger, as the result of direct orders from the Nazi leadership"
Please, prove it. Give me one reason to believe this.
"All corpses were secretly dug out from the graves and then gradually cremated on long open-air pyres, part of the plan known as the Sonderaktion 1005. Bone fragments were pulverized and mixed with the ashes to hide the evidence of mass murder."
There is absolutely no proof for this. This would create enormous piles of mass graves. One body, if cremated in an oven, results in 4-7 pounds of burnt remains. If cremated in open-air pyres (a baseless claim the air photo reconnaissance photos totally refute) they would have even more remains. We are talking: millions of pounds of remains, millions of teeth. Even if they were mixed with *soil* you could not simply "hide the evidence" to the point where it would be totally inexcavatable. There would necessarily be enormous quantities in the ground. This is just a huge conspiracy: The nazis murdered millions of people and then magically eradicated all evidence of this enormous crime with a layer of soil. It's absolutely absurd!
Chelmno - Once again this "order" does not exist. Further, you're just making excuses for why the enormous quantities of evidence which would be there cannot be found... by magic! Third: bone ash is totally insoluble in water, so even if you did pour millions of pounds of bone ash in rivers, they would still be there. This sort of nonsense wouldn't fly in a court of law.
"Auschwitz, Himmler ordered gassing operations to cease in November 1944"
Show me the alleged order. You're just pulling this out your ass, clearly. Or rather, copy-pastng from wikipedia (for which there are paid Zionist groups to edit it, with a clear ideological motive based on hatred)
"burned or demolished many of its buildings"
Yet, as I pointed out, basically left the two main alleged homicidal gas chambers... OOPS!
[Some of] the crematoria were destroyed, but not all of them. And crematoria do not imply mass murder, especiall those crematoria which were not designed very effectively for that purpose. Your entire "they tried to destroy all evidence" claim is utterly refuted by the near perfect preservation of Leichenkeller 1 of Krema II and Leichenkeller 1 of Krema III.
6 - This is a meaningless point. "Legal" means to be permitted by law. It makes no claim to morality or even justifies actions.
7 - There is no misquote at all. I said in "many cases" it was a choice. Elie Wiesel and his father chose, by their own volition, to evacuate with the Nazis. Primo Levi, himself, decided to stay. Friedrich Paul Berg, jewish survivor, claimed:
"The fact that hundreds of thousands of Jews preferred the company of Nazis to Soviet "liberation" is indeed supported by "survivor's" accounts including the Schindler List story. One interesting supporting story is that of the famous Primo Levi who achieved world notoriety for his classic "Survival in Auschwitz."
In the Collier Books version paperback version page 140 he explains why he CHOSE to stay in Auschwitz rather than go west with supposedly the greatest murderers of Jews in the history of the universe. "It was not a question of reasoning: I would probably also have followed the instinct of the flock if I had not felt so weak; fear is supremely contagious, and its immediate reaction is to make one try to run away." The "fear" in this case is clearly fear of the Russians."
Explain why an "extermination camp" let these sick people stay, to tell the Soviets about all the gas chambers, rather than simply killing them? The story refutes itself. There are photos of the Auschwitz liberation where the prisoners don't look sick at all, and some rather corpulent. Otto Frank also was not killed, but stayed until the liberation. It makes no sense that they would have let these people live to incriminate them, if it was true that "Thousands had been killed in the camps in the days before the death marches began"
8 - There is no order by Himmler to destroy the alleged gas chambers. I would be happy to see it, if you could post it. Give me the document citation. Give me ANY REASON TO BELIEVE IT. Sorry, but you can't make a ridiculous and incriminating claim and then just say "use google" when all the documents that exist can be referenced. Why do you resort to such dishonest methods?
9 - This is a stretch of the imagination. Obviously the euthanasia program existed. Obviously there was no extermination of jews. The "Final solution" *WAS PUT IN WRITING* in many instances. They all, unanimously, agree that it was a policy of resettlement/evacuation. The total lack of physical evidence is damning.
10 - This is totally ridiculous and laughable. They chose Madagascar because they thought the jews would die there? Utterly ridiculous. Today, Madagascar has a population of over 25 million. Compared to Israel which is just under 9 million. They wanted TOTAL GEOGRAPHICAL SEPARATION. You'll believe anything that makes nazis seem like the devil, won't you?
11 - There was no document or order for it. There was no policy either. I have asked you to provide documents you claim existed, yet you failed to... doubtless becuase they don't exist. There are many documents on the "Final Solution" but your racist, tinfoil hat conspiracy simply states that "evacuation" or "resettlement" was a "code-word" for extermination... simply laughable. This is even confirmed by diary entries. Is that a big nazi conspiracy too? What a joke
12 - You make no sense. Lack of water also contributes to lack of bathing opportuntiies, dehydration, etc... all of which contribute to the spread of the disease. No doctor will argue otherwise. This is not even up to debate, you did not read the article I cited from the JAMA? The nazis negotiated a truce with the British because of typhus, from the article (published in a 1945 American medical journal):
"By negotiations between British and German officers, British troops took over from the SS and the Wehrmacht the task of guarding the vast concentration camp at Belsen, a few miles northwest of Celle, which contains 60,000 prisoners, many of them political. This has been done because typhus is rampant in the camp and it is vital that no prisoners be released until the infection is checked. The advancing British agreed to refrain from bombing or shelling the area of the camp, and the Germans agreed to leave behind an armed guard which would be allowed to return to their own lines a week after the British arrival.
The story of the negotiations is curious. Two German officers presented themselves before the British outposts and explained that there were 9,000 sick in the camp and that all sanitation had failed. They proposed that the British should occupy the camp at once, as the responsibility was international in the interests of health."
Note -- there were absolutely testimonies that nazis gassed jews at Bergen Belsen. I can provide some if you wish. However, you will find in any source that 100% of historians agree that this was not the case. On 1 October 1948, Commander Anton Muller and his second-in-command, Emil Lachout, sent a memo from Vienna stating:
"The Allied Commissions of Inquiry have so far established that no people were killed by poison gas in the following concentration camps: Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flossenburg, Gross-Rosen, Mauthausen and its satellite camps, Natzweiler, Neuengamme, Niederhagen (Wewelsburg), Ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthof, Theresienstadt.
In those cases, it has been possible to prove that confessions had been extracted by torture, and that testimonies were false."
13 - Thanks for the link. I will repeat what I said, because it remains true despite your link: "[At Auschwitz] there are over 66,000 recorded deaths, none from homicidal gas chambers. Please name ONE (01) with proof that was murdered in gas chambers."
15 & 16 - It is not "whatever I claim" this is basic logic. Your measurements were nonsense. Also, your logic is backwards. You're saying the exposure period is much greater, so it needs less. The "exposure period" is the amount of time needed to gas, which is something that would be the limiting factor: if they could do it faster, they would. Zyclon-B pellets are gypsum-based HCN pellets, they need to be exposed to heat and they slowly outgas. Anyone claiming, for example, that they were gassed via dummy showerheads through pipes, is obviously lying.
That 300 ppm number is not substantiated, it is simply from a study in 1912 on rabbits. From the study: "As yet we have not conducted experiments on cats and dogs. I can make no quantitative statements about men."
Also, it is simply absurd to use the measurement of the quantity of cyanide needed to kill 1 person (which isn't even accurate) to kill thousands of people at a time. You're just copy-pasting already debunked propaganda that repeats the same mistake you already made. Like I said, it would take many hours for Zyclon-B to outgas, it's a gypsum composite.
Evaporation rate of hydrogen cyanide from the Ercco carrier material (gypsum with some starch) at various temperatures and fine distribution, according to R. Irmscher/DEGESCH 1942.
Also, the evaporation is "seriously delayed" at high atmospheric humidity, because the evaporating hydrogen cyanide withdraws considerable quantities of energy from the liquid HCN, the carrier material, and the ambient air. Such a case would absolutely happen in "homicidal gas chamber" full of naked, sweating bodies respirating constantly. Further, the increase humidity would also result in a higher likelihood of prussian blue staining on the walls.
The goofy conspiracy theory debunks itself
17 - Sure, it can be argued against, easily. I already addressed them in another post. It is another Soviet forgery, for which they were absolutely notorious:
"Your link is utterly laughable, that "artifact" from the Jaeger report (a Soviet forgery) is quite a hoot.
- The map doesn't even show the borders that were used by the Germans at the time period. See: http://bka-roa.chat.ru/generalbezirk1.jpg
also https://heiminsreich.files.wordpress.co ... _reich.jpg
- The communist Soviets 'found' the 'Jaeger Report' fifteen years after the alleged event.
- Anyone with a typewriter and German stamp, which were certainly in abundance after the war, could and did manufacture this absurd " document". The images are nothing more than a photograph of a bogus document typed by anyone to mean whatever they wanted, it would be laughed out of court. The coffins are a nice touch, LOL!
- Jaeger's group allegedly killed 133,346 people, where are the claimed mass graves of human remains to see? To verify? They simply do not exist
- Jaeger conveniently "committed suicide" in his cell before he even went to trial
According to the 'Jaeger report':
- 32 persons were shot at Mariampole on 7 July, and another 19 the next day. On the same day, they shot 6 persons at Girkalnis, which is located approximately 130 km north of Mariampole (distances by road).
- On 8 July, they shifted position to Vandziogala, which is approximately 40 km southeast of Girkalinei, to kill 38 persons. On the same day, they also appeared at Fort VII, Kaunas (approximately 30 km south of Vandziogala), where they shot 24 persons.
- On the 14th, they traveled to Mariampole (approximately 60 km southeast of Kaunas), where they killed 31 people, then, on the 17th, they appeared at Babtei (Babtai, approximately 80 km northeast of Mariampole), where they killed 8 persons, before returning to Mariampole on the 18th to shoot another 53 people.
- On 19 July, the Hamman squad traveled to Kaunas (approximately 60 km northeast Mariampole) and killed 26 people at Fort VII; two days later, they moved to Panevezys (approximately 105 km north-northeast of Kaunas), where they shot 103 persons.
- The next day, in this same locality, they killed one Jew, and on the 23rd they appeared at Kedainiai (approximately 65 km southeast of Panevezys), where they claimed 125 victims.
- On the 25th, they returned to Mariampole (approximately 105 km southeast of Kedainiai), where they killed 103 people, then, on the 28th, they again traveled to Panevezys (approximately 150 km north-northeast of Mariampole), where they shot 288 people.
At this point the raiding squad started playing a sort of ring-around-the-rosie by covering the route Panevezys-Raseiniai-Utena-Ukmerge-Kaunas twice. By this time, they had traveled almost 1,100 km by road to kill 857 people!"
18 - You're totally mistaken here. Humans don't magically turn into "ash" actually, that's wrong. "Ash" is a powdery residue left after a combustible substance is subjected to intense heat. There is coal ash, wood ash, flue ash, and many others. Cremated remains are mostly what is known as "Bone ash" (primarily calcium and phosphorus) and, as I will explain, will not simply disappear if dumped into water. From a study "Simple Method for Preparing Bone-Free Ash from Fishery Products Analyzed for Mineral Content":
"By trial and error, it was found that by adding water to the ash, the ash went into solution but not the “ashed bones”. Preliminary experiments wherein a few pieces of bone were added to the samples prior to ashing showed that the added pieces remained essentially intact and that a simple water wash dissolved all but the bone ash."
Pure tricalcium phosphate powder is also known as "synthetic bone ash". It is described as "Practically insoluble in water" on pubchem: https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compou ... creen=true
Fact is, these enormous piles of remains (millions of pounds) would still be there. Cremated remains have been excavated hundreds of years after the fact. Burning a log does not produce "bone ash" which is actually just really dehydrated bones turned into powder. This stuff lasts for a very long time, that's why we have found bones from thosuands of years ago.
Your goofy conspiracy theory hinges on the belief that millions of pounds of [water-insoluble] burnt remains could magically disappear. They can't.
19 - What is the point? Irving can say and do whatever he wants, that doesn't make him correct. He likewise has the free will to lie, or be wrong/mistaken about things. If someone believes one thing, then gets viciously assaulted and imprisoned, and then comes out with a "change of mind" you can strongly suspect that it had something to do with it. I am not really interested in defending Irving, maybe James will do that with you? As I pointed out, many nazis did, in fact, deny the "Holocaust" as alleged. To be fair, many were tortured or coerced in other ways. Commandant Hoess is a great example of this. Also, Pennsylvania judge Edward L. Van Roden wrote:
"This solitary confinement proved sufficient in itself in some cases to persuade the Germans to sign prepared statements. These statements not only involved the signer, but often would involve other defendants.
Our investigators would put a black hood over the accused’s head and then punch him in the face with rubber hose. Many of the German defendants had teeth knocked out. Some had their jaws broken.
All but two of the Germans, in the 139 cases we investigated, had been kicked in the testicles beyond repair. This was Standard Operating Procedure with American investigators."
20 - Nobody denies that nazis were anti-semitic and generally hated Jews. This isn't really debated. They formulated the "Final Solution" to evacuate/resettle all jews from the German living spaces. So Goering saying that "yes, we hate jews" isn't damning at all. If he claimed to be a "moderating force" it seems like he was just trying to save his own ass. Regardless, I refuted your claim that "none of whom has ever denied it" ad nauseum.
"taking Jewish-owned businesses and property, declaring the Nuremberg laws, charging a fine to the Jewish population for damage, and trying to eliminate Jews completely from the German economy"
None of which are tantamount to genocide. Nobody said that Jews did not suffer.
"showed his definite involvement in the anti-Semitic actions of the Nazi regime."
Which, once again, nobody denies at all. It's not genocide to hate jews, you have to actually kill them.
"The quotes you have chosen, although admirable in intent, don’t actually help your case"
They do, but first you must turn your brain on. The Nuremberg trials WERE NOT held to prove whether or not there was an extermination program. So-called "judicial notice" was taken on that. Article 19 stipulated:
"The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence... and shall admit any evidence which it deems to have probative value."
And article 21: "The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge but shall take judicial notice thereof. It shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of the United [Allied] Nations, including acts and documents of the committees set up in the various allied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and the records and findings of military and other Tribunals of any of the United [Allied] Nations."
Therefore, when someone says "I literally just heard about it now" it is quite telling.
Your "points" are ridiculous. These individuals were not trying to absolve the entire Nazi party of responsibility, but save their own asses. You said: "Not one of these quotes actually state that the Nazis did not kill Jews"
Nobody said nazis didn't kill Jews. Many jews were killed, executed... usually for a reason. It simply was not a genocide, there was no systematic extermination policy. The "Final Solution" as proven by all documents was resettlement/evacuation.
You're changing the goal posts. You're pretending that I am claiming that their denial of knowledge is an attempt to prove "the holocaust" (a conspiracy, and collection of assertions... not a singular event) didn't take place.
You said: "Lammers saying that killing Jews “cannot” have happened, also doesn’t mean it did not happen"
The point was to refute your ridiculous assertion that no nazi denied it, which I absolutely did.
"Not one of these quotes actually state that the Nazis did not kill Jews"
Because jews were executed. Alfred Rosenberg reiterates this point:
"I would assume that in such a gigantic struggle there would be many victims but I still don't believe this part where you allege to prove that deliberate mass extermination was practiced in this manner. I did, of course, know that in connection with our struggle there were many executions. I did not know anything about mass extermination to the extent and in the manner as you say."
"They didn’t say that it didn’t happen"
Actually, some of them did.
"you have failed to provide any proof of this denial"
These are virtually all from the nuremberg transcript. The "Smoking gun" really:
- Dr. Horst Pelckmann, defense counsel for the SS at Nuremberg, exposed the fact that over 97% of the SS men who mentioned "The Jewish Problem" denied that it was to be solved by extermination. On 21 August 1946 (IMT Proceedings, vol. 21, p. 368):
"On the question of whether the SS members recognized the destruction of Jewry as an aim of the leaders, 1,593 out of 1,637 affidavits which mention this problem state that the Jewish problem was not to be solved by killing or the so-called "final solution," and that they had no knowledge of these intentions of the leaders. They point out that the SS members were forbidden to undertake individual acts against Jews. As evidence, numerous members refer to the fact that many death or other severe sentences were passed because of crimes against Jewish persons or Jewish property."
NOTE: Your point about there being 800,000 SS people is obviously grasping at straws. Not all of them were interviewed or put on trial.
"This isn’t denial that it happened (i.e. of the Holocaust), it is simple denial that it was an aim."
It is total denial of the "Holocaust" as alleged, which is the extermination of jews. If someone says "There was no nazi policy to exterminate Jews" then that is denying the Holocaust. If you say "The jewish problem was not to be solved by killing" that is "denying the holocaust" -- you're pathetically grasping at straws, it's quite sad.
I reiterate: To say that the nazis did not plan to exterminate all jews IS a denial. The "Holocaust" is the aim. Nobody denies the camps. Nobody denies the piles of bodies. Nobody denies that the nazis hated jews... You're being dishonest here, clearly.
- On July 1945, the Jewish Telegraphic Agency reported that: "A report from the place where major German war criminals are now confined discloses that all of them have denied that the Nazis had any plans to exterminate the Jews of Europe." https://archive.is/NJgOn