Alleged Himmler [October?] 1944 order to stop gassing at Auschwitz

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Re: Wyatt the Twitter guy and his fake "photo" as proof of 'mass extermination at Auschwitz'

Postby wyatt » 5 months 1 week ago (Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:06 pm)

Moderator wrote:OK Wyatt, reality check:

You repeatedly said there was 'a Himmler order to stop gassings', you have been challenged to show it, you have not.
Please do so. See guidelines.
M1

This is a insane question its like asking for the written order to prove FDR ordered the building of the atom bomb. It was a secret reich matter there is no paper trail. There were gassings and then they stopped. Himmler ordered it because it was only under his authority they were authorized. this really isnt rocket science. This falls under the category of nitpicking its not a real question with serious implications its a bitchmade "GOTCHA" that has no real effect on the debate.

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Alleged Himmler [October?] 1944 order to stop gassing at Auschwitz

Postby Lamprecht » 5 months 1 week ago (Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:22 pm)

From: viewtopic.php?t=12720
wyatt wrote:
Lamprecht wrote:
wyatt wrote:I already explained in my post that they stopped gassing children in late 44 after himmler ordered gassing operations stopped (after the sonderkommando revolt) . If you pay close attention to the pictures you will notice they are all wearing adult sized inmate clothing. all images of children at auschwitz come from liberation. You can google the images in question and find the dates yourself.

There is no Himmler order of such a thing. Please post it

There was a himmler order. Because all gassings stopped in october. Only himmler had the authority to do that. Its called deduction. There is also hoess saying this in his open court testimony.


Please show us this alleged order Wyatt, or why you believe it.

This is not called "deduction" it is called circular reasoning.

Hoess said a lot of absurd things, he was tortured; this is a confirmed fact. Even if he wasn't, it's still baseless, he said whatever he was told to say. Either way, I don't think Rudolf Hoess said anything about a "Himmler order to stop gassing"

Please provide evidence for such an order
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Re: Alleged Himmler [October?] 1944 order to stop gassing at Auschwitz

Postby wyatt » 5 months 1 week ago (Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:30 pm)

You are asking for a secret reich matter on paper you literally dont understand how the german military dealt with these things. FDR didnt telegraph his order to build the atom bomb from the white house.

You are setting up bogus strawman arguments when you are getting trashed on chemistry in the other thread

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Re: Alleged Himmler [October?] 1944 order to stop gassing at Auschwitz

Postby Lamprecht » 5 months 1 week ago (Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:31 pm)

Wyatt again:
wyatt wrote:1. Himmler ordered the ending of gassings after the october uprising that destroyed krema 4. I dont understand why deniers believe there exists some written letters detailing genocide when all of these orders were secret reich matters which were delivered by oral couriers or by the man himself.


This is a very common tactic with conspiracy theorists such as yourself. Any evidence you can't provide was "destroyed"

Yet we know various incriminating documents were not destroyed but curiously they had nothing to do with Jews.

Ergo, only documents which would have proven war crimes against jews were destroyed, but those which proved them against, say, the militaries Germany was at war with, or communists in general, were not destroyed:

Kommandobefehl, Kommissarbefehl, and Sühnebefehl / "Nazis destroyed all incriminating documents" or not?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12626

Kommandobefehl & Kommissarbefehl are claimed to be orders by the German high command to instantly kill any allied commandos or Soviet political officers they captured, rather than treating them like regular POWs. These orders would have certainly been something the Nazis would want to destroy if they were expecting a military trial by the opposing forces. The Sühnebefehl were orders to execute civilians in Yugoslavia as a result of partisan action.

None of these behaviors were unique to the Germans, all sides in World War II did these sorts of things. It was, of course, the deadliest war in human history. But the [alleged] existence of these orders really calls into question the whole "Nazis destroyed all incriminating documents" claim as it now must be modified "The nazis destroyed only documents ordering the killing of Jews, but not gentiles" which is what we might call 'Grasping at straws'


And then of course the fact that they destroyed the crematoria but left the 'gas chambers' intact at various camps is the nail in the coffin of your "they destroyed anything that could prove me right" claim :lol:

Germans destroyed the crematoria, but left "Gas Chambers" intact
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12617
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Re: Alleged Himmler [October?] 1944 order to stop gassing at Auschwitz

Postby wyatt » 5 months 1 week ago (Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:39 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:Wyatt again:
wyatt wrote:1. Himmler ordered the ending of gassings after the october uprising that destroyed krema 4. I dont understand why deniers believe there exists some written letters detailing genocide when all of these orders were secret reich matters which were delivered by oral couriers or by the man himself.


This is a very common tactic with conspiracy theorists such as yourself. Any evidence you can't provide was "destroyed"

Yet we know various incriminating documents were not destroyed but curiously they had nothing to do with Jews.

Ergo, only documents which would have proven war crimes against jews were destroyed, but those which proved them against, say, the militaries Germany was at war with, or communists in general, were not destroyed:

Kommandobefehl, Kommissarbefehl, and Sühnebefehl / "Nazis destroyed all incriminating documents" or not?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12626

Kommandobefehl & Kommissarbefehl are claimed to be orders by the German high command to instantly kill any allied commandos or Soviet political officers they captured, rather than treating them like regular POWs. These orders would have certainly been something the Nazis would want to destroy if they were expecting a military trial by the opposing forces. The Sühnebefehl were orders to execute civilians in Yugoslavia as a result of partisan action.

None of these behaviors were unique to the Germans, all sides in World War II did these sorts of things. It was, of course, the deadliest war in human history. But the [alleged] existence of these orders really calls into question the whole "Nazis destroyed all incriminating documents" claim as it now must be modified "The nazis destroyed only documents ordering the killing of Jews, but not gentiles" which is what we might call 'Grasping at straws'


And then of course the fact that they destroyed the crematoria but left the 'gas chambers' intact at various camps is the nail in the coffin of your "they destroyed anything that could prove me right" claim :lol:

Germans destroyed the crematoria, but left "Gas Chambers" intact
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12617
name a single camp that wasnt liberated after directly after the bagration breakout (madjenek) that had intact gas chambers

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Re: Alleged Himmler [October?] 1944 order to stop gassing at Auschwitz

Postby Lamprecht » 5 months 1 week ago (Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:59 pm)

wyatt wrote:You are asking for a secret reich matter on paper you literally dont understand how the german military dealt with these things. FDR didnt telegraph his order to build the atom bomb from the white house.

Yes of course, in your conspiracy theory virtually anything incriminating was destroyed. Except you ignore the orders I posted in this thread

You are setting up bogus strawman arguments when you are getting trashed on chemistry in the other thread

:lol: :roll: There is no strawman except in your posts. Nor did I get "trashed"

What you're pushing is a conspiracy theory. The lack of evidence is treated as proof that the Nazis had something to hide and successfully did it. Yet there's no actual physical evidence, which would necessarily exist, to support your goofy conspiracy theory

name a single camp that wasnt liberated after directly after the bagration breakout (madjenek) that had intact gas chambers
At Majdanek the crematoria were destroyed, but the gas chambers left intact. Why not destroy the gas chambers first?
You're implying that they just didn't have the time, the Soviets came way too fast for them to get to it, but they planned to!
It's obvious nonsense and, once again, your reasoning is circular. They had time to destroy things, as evidenced by the fact that they destroyed the crematoria, but left the alleged homicidal gas chambers intact at various camps.

And since Himmler allegedly told them to "stop gassing Jews" many months before these camps were liberated, but these (now unused?) gas chambers could have been destroyed, but weren't.
"There is a principal which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principal is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: Wyatt the Twitter guy and his fake "photo" as proof of 'mass extermination at Auschwitz'

Postby Hannover » 5 months 1 week ago (Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:35 pm)

wyatt wrote:
Moderator wrote:OK Wyatt, reality check:

You repeatedly said there was 'a Himmler order to stop gassings', you have been challenged to show it, you have not.
Please do so. See guidelines.
M1

This is a insane question its like asking for the written order to prove FDR ordered the building of the atom bomb. It was a secret reich matter there is no paper trail. There were gassings and then they stopped. Himmler ordered it because it was only under his authority they were authorized. this really isnt rocket science. This falls under the category of nitpicking its not a real question with serious implications its a bitchmade "GOTCHA" that has no real effect on the debate.

LOL
So then, how do you know there was such an order?

"nitpicking"?
LOL. Then why do you and other Believers throw it out there if 'it really doesn't matter'?
You're the ones making the claim.

Imagine in a real / legit court of law where it's claims that someone stopped alleged mass exterminations of people via a specific order, but then could not show the court such a document.
- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Twitter guy Wyatt's Alleged Himmler [October?] 1944 order to stop gassing at Auschwitz

Postby HMSendeavour » 5 months 1 week ago (Fri Sep 13, 2019 2:23 am)

wyatt wrote:You are asking for a secret reich matter on paper you literally dont understand how the german military dealt with these things. FDR didnt telegraph his order to build the atom bomb from the white house.

You are setting up bogus strawman arguments when you are getting trashed on chemistry in the other thread


Yes we are asking for this? What's the problem? After a war all the papers and documents are captured and submitted into evidence etc. If the document existed then we would have it, if it doesn't exist and was destroyed there would have to have been an investigation to reach this conclusion. If there's witnesses, then they need to be cross examined and criticized to see whether it's true or not. If this has been done, please show it. Supply the evidence either for the document itself, or what evidence there is that should substantiate the existence of such a document at the time.

If you know it, then you've heard or read it from someone, and they another. There's a trail that can be followed and must be scrutinised. You cannot allude as you're doing, that we're somehow being duplicitous on this matter because you cannot supply the evidence.

You are setting up bogus strawman arguments when you are getting trashed on chemistry in the other thread


Which thread? The other one you created and haven't responded to criticism of? Oh yes, we've been 'thrashed'. Please.
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Re: Twitter guy Wyatt's Alleged Himmler [October?] 1944 order to stop gassing at Auschwitz

Postby HMSendeavour » 5 months 1 week ago (Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:07 am)

Wyatt: 1. Himmler ordered the ending of gassings after the october uprising that destroyed krema 4. I dont understand why deniers believe there exists some written letters detailing genocide when all of these orders were secret reich matters which were delivered by oral couriers or by the man himself.


The man himself eh? Hitler? There has never been any proof that Hitler was aware of the Holocaust even if it did occur. No meeting, nor oral utterances, nothing at all.

Hans Frank himself took his concerns to Hitler.

The rumor, however, that the Jews were being killed in the manner which is now known to the entire world would not be silenced. When I expressed the wish to visit the SS workshop near Lublin, in order to get some idea of the value of the work that was being done, I was told that special permission from Heinrich Himmler was required.

I asked Heinrich Himmler for this special permission. He said that he would urge me not to go to the camp. Again some time passed. On 7 February 1944 I succeeded in being received by Adolf Hitler personally-I might add that throughout the war he received me three times only. In the presence of Bormann I put the question to him: "My Fuehrer, rumors about the extermination of the Jews will not be silenced. They are heard everywhere. No one is allowed in anywhere. Once I paid a surprise visit to Auschwitz in order to see the camp, but I was told that there was an epidemic in the camp and my car was diverted before I got there. Tell me, My Fuehrer, is there anything in it? "The Fuehrer said, "You can very well imagine that there are executions going on-of insurgents. Apart from that I do not know anything. Why don't you speak to Heinrich Himmler about it?" And I said. "Well, Himmler made a speech to us in Krakow and declared in front of all the people whom I had officially called to the meeting that these rumors about the systematic extermination of the Jews were false; the Jews were merely being brought to the East." Thereupon the Fuehrer said, "Then you must believe that."

Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20170428180020/http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/04-18-46.asp

Ribbentrop also denied Hitler would have anything to do with such things if they were indeed true.

When in 1943 I submitted to the Führer a memorandum with proposals for a change in our ecclesiastical and Jewish policies, Hitler replied that he thoroughly disagreed with me on all matters. Nor did a subsequent talk, which was conducted in a comparatively calm atmosphere, yield any positive result. Hitler said: 'You understand foreign policy; the Jewish question you do not understand. This question is best understood by Goebbels. The Foreign Office can do nothing; it is not its business.' I nevertheless advanced every possible argument to prove how our situation, which had become so much more difficult through the worsening of the war, could be eased by an ideological peace. Hitler replied: 'That is naïve. This is an ideological war between the Jewish-bolshevist world and the world of nations, and it cannot be won in the field of diplomacy; arms must decide.'

The Foreign Office could only try to oppose the adoption of extreme anti-Jewish measures, and it was often able to exert a calming influence. Hitler, personally, gave few instructions to the Foreign Office on the Jewish question, and those which he did send were generally concerned with representations to friendly governments, asking that more attention should be paid to the Jewish question, and that Jews should be removed form important posts. But this, too, always led to unpleasantness without allies. Thus the Führer once sent me a message to the effect that a big Jewish espionage and sabotage organization had been discovered in Italian-occupied France, and instructed me to make serious representations to Mussolini. In our diplomatic work in neutral states it became increasingly apparent that the Jews were working against us there.

In 1944, Hitler spoke even more of his conflict with Jewry and he became fanatically obstinate. But never, down to 22nd April, 1945 when I last saw him in the Reich Chancellery, did he ever mention the killing of Jews. That is why even to-day I cannot believe that the Führer ordered these killings; I believe that Himmler presented him with accomplished facts.

Source: Full memoirs https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.183521 thread https://web.archive.org/web/20181101142651/https://www.stormfront.org/forum/t837409/

Hermann Goering also confirmed this.

With icy composure Goering cast doubts upon ail the documents and all the testimony connected with the subject. He would not venture, he said. to describe them as wholly false, but he did take into account the possibility that they might well be inconclusive or incomplete; in any case they were far too much at variance with everything he knew to be accepted. And cven if the events described by the Prosecution had taken place, he did not believe Hitler had given the order; it was more likely to have been Himmler. - Hans Fritzsche, The Sword in the Scales, London, 1953, pp.145


Hitler was also furious when he found out about supposed liquidations during the war. He dismissed them as allied propaganda. And rightfully so.

image_.jpg


No doubt the 'in private' oral orders you're referring to were also 'camouflaged' even when there would've been no need to act this way in private with his supposed co-conspirators. This always confused me because there's no evidence, testimonial or otherwise which shows Hitler ever expressing the desire to kill Jews, even in private. And why not? Even after the war? So not only is the Holocaust supposed to have been conceived in private, but it's also supposed to have been 'threatened' by Hitler in public and again only being discussed in secret terms by those involved privately? This makes no sense. As for the public utterances, Hitler's January 30th 1939 speech is usually shown, yet at this time it's acknowledged that the Holocaust wasn't even close to coming into being until 1941 at the earliest. Prominent Holocaust historian Hans Mommsen wrote.

It is therefore idle to argue about when the dictator envisaged the liquidation of the Jews as the real goal of his policy. It is certain that before 1940 the SS leadership did not think such a way was possible. Until the beginning of 1942, they pursued and operated various reserve solutions, each characterized by heightened cruelty, until finally, as a result of the military situation, this perspective appeared obsolete. Only now did the systematic liquidation begin, step by step, first of the Jews who were unable to work, then of the total Jewish population.
Source: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Mommsen1997.html

And in the description of Browning's book 'The Origins of the Final Solution'

Only in the interval between late September and late October 1941 did the desire to "remove" the Jews intersect with the discovery of acceptable means of killing them on a large scale and with the euphoria of expected victory in Russia, https://www.penguin.com.au/books/the-origins-of-the-final-solution-9781448165865


Afterall the 'Twisted Road to Auschwitz' (book by Karl A. Schleunes) was long...Right? With many alternatives for policy to change course.

Even historians, particularly Ian Kershaw and Peter Longerich, the latter who in his Himmler biography strapped the responsibility to Himmler, and only later tried to claim that Hitler was the 'accelerator' of anti-Jewish policy, and thus the true implementer of the Holocaust even indirectly. This is the same line Kershaw follows with his 'working towards the fuhrer' idea.

Irving makes a very good point in his introduction to Hitler's War.

For example, they offered alternative and often specious translations of words in Hitler’s speeches (apparently the Final Solution was too secret for him to sign an order, but simultaneously not so secret that he could not brag about it in public speeches); and quotations from isolated documents that have however long been discarded by serious historians as worthless or fakes, like the Gerstein Report† or the ‘Bunker conversations’ mentioned earlier. - David Irving, Hitler's War and the War Path, (Focal Point Publishers, 2002), pp. xxviii


The couched language I also don't buy. Rosenberg at Nuremberg called out the lying tribunal for their efforts to distort what Hitler said and wrote.

MR. DODD: Now, in your Party Day speech to which you made reference yesterday, you said you used harsh language about the Jews. In those days you were objecting to the fact that they were in certain professions, I suppose, and things of that character. Is that a fair statement?

ROSENBERG: I said yesterday that in two speeches I demanded a chivalrous solution and equal treatment, and I said the foreign nations might not accuse us of discriminating against the Jewish people, so long as these foreign nations discriminate against our nation . . .

MR. DODD: Yes, very well. Did you ever talk about the extermination of the Jews?

552

17 April 46

ROSENBERG: I have not in general spoken about the extermination of the Jews in the sense of this term. One has to consider the words here. The term "extermination" has been used by the British Prime Minister...

MR. DODD: You will get around to the words. You just tell me now whether you ever said it or not? You said that, did you not?

ROSENBERG: Not in a single speech in that sense...

MR. DODD: I understand the sense. Did you ever talk about it with anybody as a matter of State policy or Party policy, about the extermination of the Jews?

ROSENBERG: In a conference with the Fuehrer there was once an open discussion on this question about an intended speech which was not delivered. The sense of it was that now a war was going on and that this threat which had been made should not be mentioned again. That whole speech was also not delivered.

MR. DODD: When was it you were going to deliver that speech? Approximately what was the date?

ROSENBERG: In December 1941.

MR. DODD: Then you have written into your speech remarks about the extermination of Jews, haven't you? Answer that "yes" or "no."

ROSENBERG: I have said already that that word does not have the sense which you attribute to it.

MR. DODD: I will get around to the word and the meaning of it. I am asking you, did you not use the word or the term "extermination of the Jews" in the speech which you were prepared to make in the Sportpalast in December of 1941? Now, you can answer that pretty simply.

ROSENBERG: That may be, but I do not remember. I myself did not read the phrasing of the draft any further. In which form it was expressed I can no longer say.

MR. DODD: Well then, perhaps we can help you on that. I will ask you be shown Document 1517-PS. It becomes Exhibit USA-824.

[Document 1517-PS was submitted to the defendant.]

Now, this is also a memorandum of yours written by you about a discussion you had with Hitler on the 14th of December 1941, and it is quite clear from the first paragraph that you and Hitler were discussing a speech which you were to deliver in the Sportpalast in Berlin, and if you will look at the second paragraph, you will find these words:

"I remarked on the Jewish question that the comments about the New York Jews must perhaps be changed somewhat after

553

17 April 45

the conclusion (of matters ~ the East). I took the standpoint not to speak of the extermination (Ausrottung) of Jewry. The Fuehrer affirmed this view and said that they had laid the burden of war on us and that they had brought the destruction; it is no wonder if the results would strike them first."

Now, you have indicated that you have some difficulty with the meaning of that word, and I am going to ask you about the word "Ausrottung." I am going to ask that you be shown-you are familiar with the standard German-English dictionary, Cassell's, I suppose, are you? Do you know this word, ever heard of it?

ROSENBERG: No.

MR. DODD: This is something you will be interested in. Will you look up and read out to the Tribunal what the definition of "Ausrottung" is?

ROSENBERG: I do not need a foreign dictionary in order to explain the various meanings "Ausrottung" may have in the German language. One can exterminate an idea, an economic system, a social order, and as a final consequence, also a group of human beings, certainly. Those are the many possibilities which are contained in that word. For that I do not need an English-German dictionary. Translations from German into English are so often wrong-and just as in that last document you have submitted to me, I heard again the translation of "Herrenrasse." In the document itself "Herrenrasse" is not even mentioned; however, there is the term "ein falsches Herrenmenschentum" (a false master mankind). Apparently everything is translated here in another sense.

MR. DODD: All right, I am not interested in that. Let us stay on this term of "Ausrottung." I take it then that you agree it does mean to "wipe out" or to "kill off," as it is understood, and that you did use the term in speaking to Hitler.

ROSENBERG: Here I heard again a different translation, which again used new German words, so I cannot determine what you wanted to express in English.

MR. DODD: Are you very serious in pressing this apparent inability of yours to agree with me about this ward or are you trying to kill time? Don't you know that there are plenty of people in this courtroom who speak German and who agree that that word does mean to "wipe out," to "extirpate?"

ROSENBERG: It means "to overcome" on one side and then it is to be used not with respect to individuals but rather to juridical entities, to certain historical traditions. On the other side this word has been used with respect to the German people and we have also not believed that in consequence thereof 60 millions of Germans would be shot.

554

17 April 4G

MR. DODD: I want to remind you that this speech of yours in which you use the term "Ausrottung" was made about 6 months after Himmler told Hoess, whom you heard on this witness stand, to start exterminating the Jews. That is a fact, is it not?

ROSENBERG: No, that is not correct, for Adolf Hitler said in his declaration before the Reichstag: Should a new world war be started by these attacks of the emigrants and their backers, then as a consequence there would be an extermination and an extirpation. That has been understood as a result and as a political threat. Apparently, a similar political threat was also used by me before the war against America broke out. And, when the war had already broken out, I have apparently said that, since it has come to this, there is no use to speak of it at all.

MR. DODD: Well, actually, the Jews were being exterminated in the Eastern Occupied Territories at that time and thereafter, weren't they?

ROSENBERG: Then, may I perhaps ray something about the use of the words here? We are speaking here of extermination of Jewry; there is also still a difference between "Jewry" and "the Jews."

MR. DODD: I asked you if it was not a fact that at that time and later on Jews were being exterminated in the Occupied Eastern Territories which were under your ministry? Will you answer that 'yes" or "no"?

ROSENBERG: Yes. I quoted a document on that yesterday.

MR. DODD: Yes, and after that you told the Tribunal or, as l understood you at least, you wanted the Tribunal to believe that that was being done by the Police and without any of your people being involved in it; is that so?

ROSENBERG: I have heard from a witness that a district commissioner is said to have participated in these things in Vilna, and I have heard from another witness that in other cities the report came through that the Police would carry it out. From Document 1184 I gathered that a district commissioner opposed in every possible way and protested against this so-called "Schweinerei" (scandalous doings).

MR. DODD: Dr. Leibbrandt was your subordinate; he was in charge of Division II in your Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, wasn't he?

ROSENBERG: Yes, for a time.

Source: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/04-17-46.asp

For more on this see Auschwitz: A Judge Looks at the Evidence By Wilhelm Stäglich https://codoh.com/library/document/230/ pages 99-135

And the following threads on alleged statements.

Hitler's Speeches Without German Text: https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=11849&p=88676&

"Ausrottung"/"ausrotten" explained: https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2249&p=81956&

Hitler's Public [alleged] Holo-words & Dishonest Historians[/b https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=9038

[b]The Huffingtonpost Debunks Three Holocaust Revisionist Arguments - Without Even Listing Them
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12263

If I forgot anything and I remember it, i'll be sure to update later. If anyone else has anything to add, please do so.
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Re: Twitter guy Wyatt's Alleged Himmler [October?] 1944 order to stop gassing at Auschwitz

Postby Lamprecht » 5 months 1 week ago (Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:28 am)

Too much going on in this thread. Me and Hannover have asked just one simple request:

Show us the alleged "Himmler order" or, if it does not exist, provide some reason for us to believe that it ever did.

So far, Wyatt has merely claimed it existed, and whenever we ask him to provide evidence he says he can't because it was obviously destroyed. And how do we know it was destroyed? Because Himmler ordered them to stop gassing Jews. And how do we know he made that order? Because it was destroyed... etc. Wyatt claims this circular reasoning is "Deduction" :lol:

I am willing to accept the premise that documents can be destroyed, but I will not accept that as proof that a document existed. We could invent any "order" in such a case. Wyatt himself ordered the murder of 1,000 Germans. Where is the order? Well, obviously, it was destroyed, proving he had something to hide! :lol: :lol:

It's circular logic at its finest. He mentioned Hoess claiming it in his testimony (although I do not believe Hoess actually did, and think Wyatt is mistaken here) but did not quote any testimony. Not to mention Wyatt discredits Hoess with his own statements. See:

Wyatt admits to torture of Hoess; claims he's a reliable source despite "no evidence" for the absurd claims
viewtopic.php?t=12725
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Re: Twitter guy Wyatt's Alleged Himmler [October?] 1944 order to stop gassing at Auschwitz

Postby HMSendeavour » 5 months 1 week ago (Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:08 am)

On the supposed Himmler order. Göran Holming explains when and how the myth of this order came into being. The order never existed. Nor is there mention of it being destroyed, that part is pure fiction taken out of the asses of people like Wyatt who have no explanations nor knowledge of the history of such claims and documents.

https://codoh.com/library/document/958/?lang=en

The Himmler order to stop the gassing of the Jews By Göran Holming

As is well known, no order or any other of kind directive from Hitler or Himmler exists that call for the extermination or gassing of the Jews. On the other hand, allied propaganda alleges that there exists an order from Himmler to stop the gassings.[1] If such an order indeed existed, it would provide strong evidence that gassings actually took place. The allegation is question is based upon a written statement made by SS-Standartenführer Kurt Becher before the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal:

"Between the middle of September and October 1944 I caused the Reichsführer SS Himmler to issue the following order, which I received in two originals, one each for SS Generals Kaltenbrunner and Pohl, and a carbon copy for myself: 'Effective immediately I forbid any liquidation of Jews and order that, on the contrary, hospital care should be given to weak and sick persons. I hold you (and here Kaltenbrunner and Pohl were meant) personally responsible even if this order should not be strictly adhered to by lower echelons.' I personally took Pohl's copy to him at his office in Berlin and left the copy for Kaltenbrunner at his office in Berlin."[2]


No such order was ever recovered, and no-one could prove that it had existed. This caused Raul Hilberg to write:

"In November 1944, Himmler decided that for practical purposes the Jewish question had been solved. On the twenty-fifth of that month he ordered the dismantling of the killing installations."[3]


In a footnote he states as his source:

"Witness statement by Kurt Becher on March 8, 1946, PS-3762."


The witness statement however does not say anything like this.[4] Other Holocaust writers have thereafter copied Hilberg, using his book as their source. A demonstrative example may be found in the work of Berenbaum and Gutman. There we read once again of the alleged November 25 Himmler order to "demolish the gas chambers and crematoria in Auschwitz". In the note to this passage however, we find the following:

"According to the testimony of the leader of the Hungarian Zionists, Reszo Kastner, the Himmler co-worker Kurt Becher had shown him the copy of an order to destroy the gas chambers and the crematoria. This order was dated to November 25, 1944."[5]


This date is also found in the notes of an anynomous author, a prisoner and a member of the Sonderkommando, who wrote, that the dismantling of Krematorium II had begun on November 25.

To me as an officer, it seems very peculiar that the formidable SS colonel Kurt Becher went around showing top secret Himmler orders to Jewish leaders. The order was so secret that only three copies were made and no record of it was preserved – yet Jewish representatives were allowed to read it!

Already back in 1972 I had made the acquaintance of an older German cavalry officer, who was married to a very famous dressage rider. During the years that followed I met Mr. Becher on a number of occasions in connection with riding events in Germany, but it was not until relatively late, probably in 1993, that I realized that he was the same person as the famous SS colonel. I know asked him for a meeting, and on October 26, 1994, he received me at his home in Bremen, where he – visibly amused by my curiosity – told me in detail of his time as an officer in the Waffen-SS, and of his service during the war in the 8th SS Cavalry Division Florian Geyer.

Between summer and autumn of 1944 Becher was in Hungary to buy horses for his own division as well the German army. In connection with this he came into contact with leading Hungarian Jews, among them the aforementioned Kastner. Through Himmler Becher managed to see to that 1,000 of the wealthiest Budapest Jews, among them the arms industry tycoon Weiss, later a resident of New York City, in the autumn of 1944 were given the opportunity to travel to enemy-controlled territory via Bergen-Belsen. There next followed the notorious negotiations between Kastner and Becher about letting another 100,000 Budapest Jews travel to Palestine in exchange for 10,000 US made trucks.

During this conversation the leading Jews expressed their concern for what would happen to their co-religionists once the front of the war reached the German concentration camps such as Auschwitz in the east and Natzweiler and Neuengamme in the west. Surely the guards would not start killing off the Jews when this happened? Remarkably, none of them showed any greater concern for what would happen to the Jews in the camps before the war reached those places.

Becher calmed the Hungarian Jews by assuring them, that he would soon see Himmler and that he would then tell him of their concerns. Becher met with Himmler at the end of September or in early October, most likely on September 25, thus giving rise to the date recurring in literature. Himmler immediately issued an order stating that:

"as enemy troups reaches the concentration camps, these are to be surrendered without fighting. Necessary measures are to be taken in order that this may take place in good order and without the loss of prisoner lives."


To my question why he had made a diametrically opposite statement at Nuremberg, Becher merely replied ambiguously, that I did not understand what the situation had been like during the Nuremberg trial.[6] Kurt Becher later made a large fortune through business with the Israeli State. As our conversations were broken off by the death of Becher in August 1995, I unfortunately never received any clarifications regarding this matter.

The cheerful laughter of Becher's that I got as an answer to my question concerning the alleged November 25 order to demolish the Auschwitz gas chambers would clearly indicate that this claim is to be ascribed to the usual falsifiers of history.

The order which Kurt Becher in fact received from Himmler was, according to Becher, issued in three copies: one for the head of Gestapo, Kaltenbrunner, one for the head of the SS Department of Economical Administration (WVHA), SS-General Oswald Pohl, and one which was kept by Becher, but never shown to anyone. Becher personally delivered the orders to the mentioned other two. Why the order was only issued in three copies and kept so secret that it had to be handed over in person by a colonel, is easily explained: what Himmler had written in it constituted a clear admission, that the war was lost and that enemy forces would advance and reach the inner parts of Germany. It thus was a clearly defeatist piece of writing, for which the author could expect the death penalty, should it fall into the wrong hands. The mere idea that such a secret paper would be shown to an enemy person such as Kastner is laughable, the claim bearing the traits of an Oriental rather than European way of thinking.

As Kurt Becher showed himself to be enjoying our conversation and made the impression of being honest, I finally asked him:

"What then is the truth about the gassing of European Jews, and what do you know about it? After all you spent much time together with the best informed and leading Hungarian Jews."


To this, Becher replied:

"I heard about these things for the first time when I was brought to Nuremberg as a prisoner. What the truth really is, I don't know, but the allegations are in any case enormously exaggerated, as we all know."


This means that at the end of September/beginning of October 1944, Kurt Becher received an order that the concentration camps should be peacefully surrendered to the approaching enemy in order to save human lives. Out of this, the falsifiers of history at Nuremberg made up the allegation, that on November 25, 1944 Himmler had issued Kurt Becher an order to cease the gassings and destroy the Auschwitz gas chambers.[7]

Notes
Translated by Thomas Kues

[1]The author of this article for many years served as an officer in the Royal Swedish Navy. Translator's note.

[2]IMT Document PS-3762; IMT Volume XXXII, p. 68. [The original German text reads: Etwa zwischen Mitte September und Mitte Oktober 1944 erwirkte ich beim Reichsminister SS Himmler folgenden Befehl, den ich in zwei Originalen, je eins für die SS-Obergruppenführer Kaltenbrunner und Pohl und einer Copie für mich erhielt: "Ich verbiete mit sofortiger Wirkung jegliche Vernichtung von Juden und befehle im Gegenteil die Pflege von schwachen und kranken Personen. Ich halte Sie (damit waren Kaltenbrunner und Pohl gemeint) persönlich dafür verantwortlich, auch wenn dieser Befehl von untergeordneten Dienststellen nicht strikt befolgt wird!" Ich überbrachte Pohl das für ihn bestimmte Exemplar persönlich in Berlin in seiner Dienststelle und gab das Exemplar für Kaltenbrunner in seinem Sekretariat in Berlin ab. Note of the translator.]

[3]Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews, Quadrangle Books, Chicago 1961, p. 631.

[4]That is, it does not mention the dismantling of any gas chambers or other kinds of killing installations. Translator's note.

[5]Israel Gutman, Michael Berenbaum (eds.), Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Indiana University Press, Bloomington/Indianapolis 1994, p. 174 and 181, note 74.

[6]Cf. Germar Rudolf (Ed.), Dissecting the Holocaust, Second edition, Theses & Dissertations Press, Chicago 2003, pp. 85-132.

[7]This article was originally published in German in Vierteljahreshefte für freie Geschichtsforschung, No. 1(4) (1997), p. 258ff.
Additional information about this document


I think it's settled. Another case of no doubt hundreds of thousands of Historian chinese whispers and allied violence. Shocker.
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference

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Re: Twitter guy Wyatt's Alleged Himmler [October?] 1944 order to stop gassing at Auschwitz

Postby HMSendeavour » 5 months 1 week ago (Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:34 am)

Lamprecht wrote:Too much going on in this thread. Me and Hannover have asked just one simple request:

Show us the alleged "Himmler order" or, if it does not exist, provide some reason for us to believe that it ever did.

So far, Wyatt has merely claimed it existed, and whenever we ask him to provide evidence he says he can't because it was obviously destroyed. And how do we know it was destroyed? Because Himmler ordered them to stop gassing Jews. And how do we know he made that order? Because it was destroyed... etc. Wyatt claims this circular reasoning is "Deduction" :lol:

I am willing to accept the premise that documents can be destroyed, but I will not accept that as proof that a document existed. We could invent any "order" in such a case. Wyatt himself ordered the murder of 1,000 Germans. Where is the order? Well, obviously, it was destroyed, proving he had something to hide! :lol: :lol:

It's circular logic at its finest. He mentioned Hoess claiming it in his testimony (although I do not believe Hoess actually did, and think Wyatt is mistaken here) but did not quote any testimony. Not to mention Wyatt discredits Hoess with his own statements. See:

Wyatt admits to torture of Hoess; claims he's a reliable source despite "no evidence" for the absurd claims
viewtopic.php?t=12725


How do we know Hitler ordered the Holocaust? Because the Holocaust happened. How do we know the Holocaust happened? Because Hitler ordered it.

Thanks for this very enlightening debate technique Wyatt! You successfully proved the Holocaust single handedly! :lol:
Now what does it mean for the independent expert witness Van Pelt? In his eyes he had two possibilities. Either to confirm the Holocaust story, or to go insane. - Germar Rudolf, 13th IHR Conference


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