Issues with post-WWII Jewish census figures

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Issues with post-WWII Jewish census figures

Postby Lamprecht » 1 year 1 month ago (Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:28 pm)

Often times census figures are used as proof that 6 million Jews perished under the Third Reich in World War II. There are many issues with this, with the most important problem being that the Jewish population estimates are based on self-reported ancestry. Being Jewish is generally seen as an ethnicity (or, rather, a group of ethnicities: Ashkenazi, Sephardim, etc) or nationality. But a large number of atheists of Jewish descent probably would have not identified as Jewish on these census figures in the USSR. Antisemitism didn't magically disappear in Europe after World War II.

Census figures were possibly even changed to reflect the "6 million" claim. See: viewtopic.php?p=92983#p92983

Over 100,000 Jews in "Holocaust victim database" listed as killed in military service: viewtopic.php?p=92184#p92184

Germar Rudolf:
Regarding the number of Jews to be found in the post-war Soviet Union, Benz cites Soviet census data only. He sets out that "doubts about the reliability of Soviet censuses […] are not justified" because these data served as the basis and foundation of the Soviet national economy (B558).

But every child knows nowadays that all conceivable kinds of data have been falsified in the service of precisely this national economy so as to manifest Soviet superiority in economic competition with the capitalist western world. Domestically speaking, these falsifications served to close Russian eyes, ears and mouths to the inexorably approaching collapse. But where the number of Jews identified by the censuses is concerned, there is not even any need for falsification. After all, the radically atheistic Soviet Union was one of those nations that made it especially difficult for the Jews to profess their faith. Therefore, the numbers of Jews that voluntarily acknowledged their faith in 1959 and 1970 (2.2 and 2.1 million, respectively; B559; S117) says nothing at all about the number of survivors in the Soviet Union. Jewish estimates dating from the 1970s suggest 3 to 4 million Soviet Jews (S117ff.). More recent newspaper reports even speak of 5 million Jews and more, which, however, seems unlikely in light of the stagnating demographic trends.[55] Since Zionist circles are striving for the emigration of Jews from Russia to Israel after the collapse of the Soviet Union, it is possible that they tend to exaggerate the number of Jews in Russia, with the intent to dramatize their hard lot during 70 years of Stalinist oppression. The numbers of presumably present or missing Jews thus serve as politically strategic putty in other respects as well.
Holocaust Victims: A Statistical Analysis
https://codoh.com/library/document/930/


Juergen Graf:
According to the 1939 census, there had been 3.02 million Jews in the Soviet Union. Now the first postwar census, which took place in 1959, only yielded 2.26 million Jews, but all western Zionist agreed that this figure was unrealistically low. According to Soviet practice, every citizen could chose himself which nationality he or she belonged to, and a considerable part of the Soviet Jews were already assimilated and regarded themselves as Russians, Ukrainians etc.

Moreover, the political atmosphere was not particularly favourable to the Jews at that time, so many of them preferred not to be identified as such. Finally, one cannot exclude the possibility that the Soviet government, which endorsed the Holocaust legend, deliberately falsified the results of the census. On 1 July 1990, the Zionist New York Post, referring to Israeli specialists, stated that there were over five million Jews in the USSR. As the birth rate of the Soviet Jews was by far the lowest of any ethnic group in the country, and as many hundreds of thousands of Jews had already emigrated by that time, all points to the conclusion that there were between five and six million Jews in the USSR after the Second World War. This can only be explained by the fact that a large percentage of Polish and Baltic Jewry had been absorbed by the Soviet state.

Of course, it is impossible to give precise figures. For example, we do not know how many of the Polish Jews who had fled from the Germans in 1939, or who had been evacuated after the German attack on Russia in 1941, returned to Poland after the war, and how many of them elected to stay there. In February 1946, at a time when the return of Jews from Russia was still going on, and when large numbers of Polish Jews had already emigrated to the west, a British-American commission reported that there were still 800,000 Jews in Poland (17).
Jewish population losses in the German sphere of influence during the World War II
https://www.historiography-project.com/ ... losses.php or http://web.archive.org/web/201909152015 ... losses.php



This article by a Joshua Rothenberg confirm's what Graf has said, although gives lower estimates on the number of Jews who hide their identity:
How Many Jews Are There in the Soviet Union? - Joshua Rothenberg, Jewish Social Studies, Vol. 29, No. 4 (Oct., 1967), pp. 234-240
HOW MANY JEWS ARE THERE IN THE SOVIET UNION?
BY Joshua Rothenberg

Before the population census in 1959, estimates of the Jewish population in the Soviet Union varied by as much as one million-from as low as two million at one extreme to as high as three million at the other.

Data on the Jewish population of various countries are ordinarily hard to gather, since censuses in most countries do not include questions on religion or nationality. In the Soviet Union such information should be much easier to obtain, because a question on nationality status is included in the censuses, and Jews are one of the recognized nationalities of the multi-national country.

According to the Soviet census of 1959, 2,268,000 persons have declared that they are members of the Jewish nationality.1 This has, nevertheless, not settled the controversy on the size of the Jewish population in the country. Opinions were frequently voiced that a large number of Soviet Jews have, for various reasons, declared in the census questionnaires that they belong to other than Jewish nationalities (for the most part to the Russian), and that consequently the real size of the Jewish population in the Soviet Union is larger than the 2,268,000 indicated in the census.

For instance, Professor Salo W. Baron expressed the opinion that "it stands to reason that an unspecified number, perhaps several hundred thousands, preferred to list themselves as belonging to Russian, Ukrainian or some other nationality."'2

Mordecai Altshuler, an Israeli writer, maintained that "there are grounds to assume that in the last 1959 census at least 10-15% of the Jews concealed their Jewishness."3 Unfortunately, the assertions of these writers are based solely on a general assumption and are not deduced from specific calculations.

http://web.archive.org/web/201909152011 ... -union.pdf

What do you think?



More info:

USSR was created by Jews, but Stalin overthrew them / Stalin's "antisemitic" purges
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=12734

Jews evacuated to USSR during war (37 articles from the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, 1939-45)
https://archive.is/jA9iI

NYT: 24 JUNE 1946: INFLUX OF 3,000,000 JEWS; Tells Newspaper Executives in Germany That Refugees Have Created Grave Problem
https://archive.is/Jw6EM
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Re: Issues with post-WWII Jewish census figures

Postby Hannover » 1 year 1 month ago (Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:35 pm)

Indeed, anyone who relies on stats from the USSR is truly desperate.
The Soviets routinely lied about everything which was in their interest to lie about. They certainly needed to distract from their barbaric behavior in a war which they helped start.

And then there's the fact that Jews have a history of under counting themselves and essentially avoiding being counted.

The Talmud states multiple times that it is forbidden to directly count the Jewish people. The clearest biblical source for this prohibition seemingly stems from the half-shekel payments made by each Israelite before the building of the Tabernacle.
“When you take a census of the Israelite people... each shall pay the Lord a ransom for himself on being enrolled that no plague may come upon them...” (Exodus 30:12). While talk of ransom (kofer) implies protection from previous sins, most understand the payment as necessary to prevent harm from the census.
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewi ... t-a-census
According to Jewish law Jews are to avoid being counted.
"To actually count Jews directly is forbidden (Talmud, Yoma 22b), as the prophet says: "And the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which shall neither be measured nor counted."
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c ... g-Jews.htm
'Why is it forbidden to count Jews?'
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Artic ... aspx/18472
"This opening verse of our Biblical portion teaches that it is forbidden to take a number count of the Israelites, a census activity which Jewish organizations are constantly involved in doing. This prohibition is reinforced by the prophet Hosea (chapter 2), when he declares: “The number of the children of Israel shall be as the sands of the sea, which cannot be numbered and cannot be counted…” And historically even King David learned the bitter lesson of the power of this command, when- against the will of his Chief Commander Joab - he ordered a census, and the Israelites suffered a plague (II Samuel, 24)."
“This prohibition is reinforced by the prophet Hosea (chapter 2), when he declares: “The number of the children of Israel shall be as the sands of the sea, which cannot be numbered and cannot be counted…"
"I have seen all the (Jewish?) works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and a striving after wind. That which is crooked cannot be made straight, and that which is wanting cannot be numbered….”
- Book of Ecclesiaste

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Issues with post-WWII Jewish census figures

Postby Hannover » 1 year 1 month ago (Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:49 pm)

More on this topic.

- Most Jews are not 'religious' so they do not say they are Jews in census questions about religion. They consider themselves Jews nonetheless. They want you to think they are so few & helpless victims when in fact they create massive resentment towards themselves by their owns actions.

- The US Census is prohibited from counting 'Jews' and all US federal, state and local governments are similarly disallowed from ‘noticing’ Jewish formation and over representation.

- Exclusive: Ethnicity option on next census could show 400,000 Jews in UK:
https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/ex ... ews-in-uk/

All of this really part of the canard 'So where did they go?'.
That too is handled with ease. The examples are numerous, such as:

- After the war, many Jews stayed in Europe and many others scattered throughout the world. In the late 1990s the teams put in charge by Steven Spielberg of gathering "survivors testimonies had to go to nearly sixty different countries to record these "testimonies" on video.

- Jews Transited through Treblinka, By Panagiotis Heliotis
https://codoh.com/library/document/6649/?lang=en

- Jews evacuated to USSR during war:
https://archive.is/jA9iI

- More Jews evacuated to USSR during war:
https://www.jta.org/1944/02/23/archive/ ... r-refugees

much more:
'J. Graf and the illogical canard: 'Where did Jews go then?' / & more'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8272

Hannover

Imagine in a real / legit court of law where someone claims that many millions of people were murdered and dumped into allegedly known mass graves, but then could not produce the claimed mass graves and the alleged contents. They would be laughed out of that court.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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The Dissolution Of Eastern European Jewry (2015) Dr. Walter Sanning

Postby Lamprecht » 1 year 1 month ago (Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:02 pm)

Article from 2017 by Sanning:
"In 1983, Sanning's trail-blazing demographic study on the dissolution of Eastern European Jewry appeared, showing that Jewish "Holocaust" losses cannot have amounted to more than several hundred thousand victims. This report gives an update on further research since then. In particular, newly available data about the emigration of Jews from the Soviet Union and its successor states are of interest in this regard. They indicate that Sanning was correct in assuming that Soviet post-war census data about the number of Jews who survived World War Two were unreliable. The number of Jews who have emigrated since the 1970s, plus the demographic collapse Jewry experienced after the war due to an extremely low birth rate, compels the conclusion that many more Jews survived the war in the USSR than previously assumed.
...
The particulars of the Soviet censuses do not admit of reliably arriving at the numerical strength of the Jewish people in the former Soviet Union: a portion of the Jews was no longer willing to face the alienation that open statement of their ethnicity brought with it and claimed other nationalities. I see no reason why the demographic characteristics of the two groups – those who identified themselves with their people, and those that gave out some other nationality – should have been distinguished in any way.

- Walter N. Sanning (2017) "New Insights into the Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry"
English: https://codoh.com/library/document/4227/en/
German: https://codoh.com/library/document/4227/de/

Sanning's full book:
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The Dissolution Of Eastern European Jewry (2015) Dr. Walter Sanning
PDF: https://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/29-tdoeej.pdf
HTML: https://web.archive.org/web/20200306024 ... s-sanning/ or http://archive.fo/xMtwA
TXT: https://web.archive.org/web/20190916005 ... y_djvu.txt or http://archive.fo/CG3vH
An excerpt:
In 1946, the American scholar and professor at Princeton University, Dr. Frank Lorimer, published a book, The Population of the Soviet Union: History and Prospects, under the auspices of the League of Nations. In this book he traced important differences in data collection by the Soviets in the censuses of 1926 and 1939. The census of 1926, for instance, was based on the criterion of “narodnost” (tribe, ethnic group), which corresponds more to an ethnic “tribal” affiliation than the criterion “nationalnost” (nationality) as used in the census of 1939. In any case, the result of these definitional criteria alterations was such that the changes in the numerical size of the various ethnic groups in the USSR from 1926 to 1939 bore little relationship to reality.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
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Well, where are they then? - Issues with post-WWII Jewish census figures

Postby Lamprecht » 1 year 4 weeks ago (Sun Sep 22, 2019 5:18 pm)

Another great article on the topic of Jewish population data by Wilfried Heink. Here is a short excerpt of his article where he explains the issues with census figures and the absurdity of the "Well, where are they then?" question.
Well, where are they then?

Revisionists are continually asked the above question, the implication being that if the Jews were not murdered, where are they then? In this essay I will try to demonstrate that it is near impossible to give a satisfactory answer to the above question. The numbers of Jews killed, as presented by the historians who believe in "The Holocaust", are based on transport lists, telegrams, counting of rail cars, etc., etc. This is not an exact science. In fact, the data provided of Jews being deported is no evidence that they were murdered. The numbers game is tricky for another reason: we have no precise figures of how many Jews were under the control of the Germans, how many survived, how many were able to flee or survive somehow, and to migrate from Europe before or after the war. This then is the topic of the present essay. I will merely present the numbers as they are available, without much of commentary. Admittedly, this is also not exact science, but because of the many unknowns, mentioned above, it is near impossible to come up with accurate figures.
...
Conclusion

Jews served in the Red Army – a number of them were killed – how many we don’t know. Jews fought as partisans – a number of them were killed – how many we don’t know. Jews were deported by the Germans, forced to serve as slave labour – a number of them died – how many we don’t know. Jews fled ahead of the advancing Germans or were evacuated by the Soviet authorities – how many we don’t know. Jews fled via other countries – how many we don’t know. Jews hid in the forest – how many we don’t know. Jews converted to Catholicism – how many we don’t know. Jews were helped to escape/emigrate by the locals - how many we don’t know. Jews changed their names – how many we don’t know. Jews were helped following the war by various organizations to relocate - how many we don’t know. Etc., etc.

It is therefore impossible to construct a "Holocaust by demographics", because of the many unknowns. Thus, the question: "Well, where are they then?" is a moot question. If we are to believe that "The Holocaust" happened, a solid case for mass murder has to be made. So far this has not been done, and those who claim that "it" did happen, have to realize that it cannot be proven simply by repeating ad nauseam the question: "Well, where are they then?"

In reality, the question is a declaration of bankruptcy, because by asking it is admitted that no solid case for mass murder can be made, for if it were, there would exist no need to ask the question.
Well, where are they then? - Wilfried Heink
https://codoh.com/library/document/4447/
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Re: Issues with post-WWII Jewish census figures

Postby Lamprecht » 8 months 2 weeks ago (Wed Feb 05, 2020 9:09 pm)

"The leading pre-war expert on Jewish population statistics, Arthur Ruppin, stated that there were 16.7 million Jews in the world in 1939 (13). For the immediate postwar years, the World Almanac gave the following figures: 15.19 million in 1945 and 15.7 million in the following four years, from 1946 to 1949. But its 1949 issue, the World Almanac quoted the figures furnished by the American Jewish committee according to which there had been 16.6 million Jews in 1939 and only 11.2 million in 1947 (14). On the other hand, in an article published in the Jewish-owned New York Times in early 1948, Hanson Baldwin, a military expert and specialist on Palestine, stated that there were between 15 and 18 million Jews worldwide (15). As you see, the Jewish world population statistics enable you as easily to prove that the Holocaust took place as they allow you to prove that it didn't; it just depends upon which statistics you prefer to believe. It's not in these statistics that we are going to find the answer to our question how many Jews really perished as a result of German policy."
- Jürgen Graf (2001) 'Jewish population losses in the German sphere of influence during the World War II'
http://archive.is/Jx8Ye

Also recommended:

How Many Jews Were Eliminated by the Nazis? A Preliminary Survey Of The Question
https://codoh.com/library/document/2039/

Jewish Evacuations by the USSR during WWII (from Solzhenitsyn's Two Hundred Years Together)
viewtopic.php?t=12777

What happened to the Jews in Poland?
https://codoh.com/library/document/1694/

Polish Population Losses during World War Two
https://codoh.com/library/document/1459/
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer

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Re: Issues with post-WWII Jewish census figures

Postby Lamprecht » 6 months 1 day ago (Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:10 pm)

Hannover wrote:- Exclusive: Ethnicity option on next census could show 400,000 Jews in UK:
https://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/ex ... ews-in-uk/


The new US census under President Trump had boxes to check for White, Black, East Asian, etc, but required one to type in something to describe it.
Some Jews put "100% Ashkenazi" but others put something completely different. I myself put "Indigenous White American"

From a JTA article:
"Some respondents were wary of the question.

“I can’t think of anything good the census bureau would be using the ethnicity origin data for,” said Frederick Winter, 72, a retired federal employee living in Arlington. “I understand that by law census data is not shared with other agencies, but I have my doubts.”

He checked “white” and entered “USA” for origins.

For one couple, sensitivities about being Jewish in a non-Jewish society broke in opposite directions.

Gabriel Botnick, a Los Angeles-area rabbi, was set to enter the fifth option, “some other race,” and add “Jewish” because he does not identify as “white” — he said “I have been made to feel” not white in the past. His wife, also a rabbi and originally from Britain, asked him to check “white” and skip the origins."

http://archive.fo/eMWRb or https://jta.org/2020/04/08/united-state ... ur-origins
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
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Re: Issues with post-WWII Jewish census figures

Postby slob » 5 months 4 weeks ago (Thu Apr 23, 2020 6:15 pm)

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Re: Issues with post-WWII Jewish census figures

Postby Hektor » 4 months 1 week ago (Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:56 pm)

Lamprecht wrote:
"The leading pre-war expert on Jewish population statistics, Arthur Ruppin, stated that there were 16.7 million Jews in the world in 1939 (13). For the immediate postwar years, the World Almanac gave the following figures: 15.19 million in 1945 and 15.7 million in the following four years, from 1946 to 1949. But its 1949 issue, the World Almanac quoted the figures furnished by the American Jewish committee according to which there had been 16.6 million Jews in 1939 and only 11.2 million in 1947 (14). On the other hand, in an article published in the Jewish-owned New York Times in early 1948, Hanson Baldwin, a military expert and specialist on Palestine, stated that there were between 15 and 18 million Jews worldwide (15). As you see, the Jewish world population statistics enable you as easily to prove that the Holocaust took place as they allow you to prove that it didn't; it just depends upon which statistics you prefer to believe. It's not in these statistics that we are going to find the answer to our question how many Jews really perished as a result of German policy."
- Jürgen Graf (2001) 'Jewish population losses in the German sphere of influence during the World War II'
http://archive.is/Jx8Ye

Also recommended:

How Many Jews Were Eliminated by the Nazis? A Preliminary Survey Of The Question
https://codoh.com/library/document/2039/

Jewish Evacuations by the USSR during WWII (from Solzhenitsyn's Two Hundred Years Together)
viewtopic.php?t=12777

What happened to the Jews in Poland?
https://codoh.com/library/document/1694/

Polish Population Losses during World War Two
https://codoh.com/library/document/1459/

Sure it depends also on how one counts Jews. Do they link it to religion or ethnicity for example? Religion is obviously a problem in a population that rapidly turns atheist or agnostic, which seems to have been the case with Jews during the 20th century.
Another base of statistics would be a self declared census or several of them. Now, when there are rumors of exterminations of a certain ethnicity going on and echoing. How likely is it that people would self-identify with that ethnicity in a census? My take is that a lot of them would refuse out of fear of victimisation.


As for the Almanac as source, I found this flip-flop argument:
Holocaust denial proponents point to the World Almanac for proof. The 1940 edition listed the world’s Jewish population at 15,319,359. By the 1949 edition, deniers assert, that figure is listed as 15,713,638. How could six million, over one-third of all Jews in the world, be murdered and the population increase?
http://archive.is/1cIkY
Spot the deceptions also in the light of that what Graf says above.

Counterquestion: What is your statistical proof that the Germans/Axis murdered 6.000.000 Jews then?
Can't answer that? My friend, you've just demonstrated how intellectually bankrupt Holocaust proponents are.

PS.: Can that Alamanacs and other statistics be downloaded somewhere?

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Re: Issues with post-WWII Jewish census figures

Postby Lamprecht » 4 months 1 week ago (Fri Jun 12, 2020 4:59 pm)

Hektor wrote:Sure it depends also on how one counts Jews. Do they link it to religion or ethnicity for example? Religion is obviously a problem in a population that rapidly turns atheist or agnostic, which seems to have been the case with Jews during the 20th century.

Indeed, some people find the census figures as the most convincing argument, but it really is one of the weakest of all.

The USSR was discussed in the OP and had its own census issues, but the USA has barely been touched on. Depending on how you define the word "Jew" we can find that the USA has the more Jews than any other country in the world, including Israel, it's just that a very large number of Jews living in the USA are atheist:
"Atheism is entrenched in American Judaism. In researching their book American Grace, authors Robert Putnam and David Campbell found that half of all American Jews doubt God's existence. In other groups, that number is between 10 and 15 percent."
- USA Today (2011) "Judaism without God? Yes, say American atheists"
http://web.archive.org/web/201302260607 ... 50553958/1
What we understand as "Anti-Semitism" also was prevalent in the USA before and during WWII:

Were Americans more anti-Semitic than anti-German during WWII?
viewtopic.php?t=12464

It certainly did not magically disappear in the 1950s. For what reason exactly would an atheist Jew in the USA be counted as "Jewish" in the census figures? Depending on how you define "Jew" the number of Jews in the USA can more than double, showing how inaccurate these figures can be:
"Following these observations, relying on the 2013 Pew survey and its subsequent updates, stressing that the true predicament of American Jewish demography concerns population definitions, and following the assumption that Jewish identity is mutually exclusive versus other competing religious and ethnic identities, our core Jewish population estimate remains stable at 5,700,000 for 2018—the world's second largest. Broader definitional criteria naturally generate higher estimates. Including the partly Jewish with no religion and the pertinent portion of non-Jews with declared Jewish background, about eight million Americans have at least one Jewish parent. The enlarged total population including non-Jews in Jewish households approaches ten million. The Law of Return population probably approaches twelve million. By each of these expanded criteria, the number of persons included is significantly larger than in Israel."
- Berman Jewish Databank (2018) "World Jewish Population"
https://web.archive.org/web/20190622171 ... _Final.pdf

There are a lot of goofy beliefs, attitudes and customs to be found in this ancient religion called Judaism. I am talking about what their Holy Texts - the Talmud and Torah - actually state. So-called "Reform" Jews have modernized it a bit but they are not staying true to the traditional practices of Judaism, these are just ethnic/cultural offshoots of Judaism. Regardless, both atheist and religious Jews consider "Remembering the Holocaust" as the most important aspect of being a Jew:

Most important part of being Jewish: Remembering the "Holocaust"
viewtopic.php?t=12425

Further complicating things is the fact that a lot of European Jews in the USA intermarried with gentiles, even religious Jews. Some Jewish leaders called it a second Holocaust:
"Nearly 30 years ago, reports of a 52% interfaith household rate had some US Jewish leaders denouncing ‘assimilation’ as silently completing Hitler’s work
In recent years, several Israeli leaders have opined that a “second Holocaust” is taking place in America through assimilation. However, the notion of a “silent” or “second Holocaust” taking place in the US was not born in Israel, but the Goldene Medina itself... Although the researchers were most interested in socioeconomic issues and “integration,” the study’s shocker was that 52 percent of Jews were married to non-Jews. To put that statistic into perspective, the rate of intermarriage in 1965 was only 9%."

- Times of Israel (2019) "When American Jews described their own intermarriage as a ‘Second Holocaust’"
http://web.archive.org/web/201907131546 ... holocaust/

It makes sense given that the USA is very large, almost as large as Europe and having 50 different states. There are not even 1 dozen US counties with a 2 digit % Jewish population, and these are found only in 5 of the states: NY, FL, MD, NJ, & CA. How would an atheist Jew find a Jewish spouse to do if they moved to another part of the country? Today it is not a big deal because of technology, but in the past it would have been much more troublesome for an atheist Jew to find another non-religious Jewish spouse in most of the US.

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Re: Issues with post-WWII Jewish census figures

Postby Archie » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Thu Jun 25, 2020 9:25 pm)

Douglas Reed has some amusing commentary on this in his book The Controversy of Zion. Wikipedia says the book was written in 1956 but not published until 1978. Reed was a British journalist who worked as a correspondent in Berlin, Vienna, and other European cities.

https://www.unz.com/book/douglas_reed__the-controversy-of-zion/#chapter-42-the-talmudic-vengeance

At no time in history, from antiquity to this day, can the number of Judahites, Judeans or Jews, living at any given time, be determined; for that reason the number afflicted in any calamity also cannot be determined, and there are many more reasons why the number of Jewish victims in the Second World War cannot be fixed. The process of mystification begins in Genesis and continues through the Torah (the seventy people taken by Jacob to Egypt, for instance, apparently increased to two or three million within 150 years). At all periods large, and sometimes huge variations occur in the “estimates,” and only estimates are possible, as the present term, “Jew,” is legally indefinable and statistically elusive.

An eminent Jewish authority, Dr. Hans Kohn, in his article on “the distribution of Jews” in the Encyclopaedia Britannica Book of the Year for 1942, writes:

“In view of the fact that in several of the countries where the largest number of Jews were living in 1941 the census did not contain any questions regarding religion … the exact number of Jews in the world in 1941 could not be ascertained. The definition of persons falling under the classification of ‘Jewish race’ is in no way agreed upon … In countries where the census included questions of religious origins, even this religious criterion of Jewish faith is difficult to define exactly.

Thus the assumption which generally varied around the figure of 16 million” (for the entire world) “cannot claim any foundation on exact ‘figures. To this uncertainty about the number of Jews in the world was added in recent years a growing uncertainty about their numerical distribution in the different countries and continents. Probably more than 6,000,000 Jews lived in Poland and the U.S.S.R.”

A weaker basis than that even for “estimates” (not to speak of “statistics”) can hardly be imagined, yet in the ensuing period, when all the additional confusions of war and occupation were piled on this infirm foundation, precise numbers of Jewish casualties were produced day by day, circulated by thousands of assiduous propagandists, and at the end declared to amount to six millions!

The encyclopaedias, statistical yearbooks and almanacs are in this one question all at odds with each other and untrustworthy ... All published figures are “estimates” made at the estimators’ pleasure, and are without value. A professional accountant might write a book on the efforts of the encyclopaedists to make the post-war figure of Jewish population in the world conform with the pre-war “estimates,” minus six million. Figures are tricky things: a few examples:

The leading American reference yearbook, the World Almanac, in 1947 gave the 1939 Jewish world-population as 15,688,259. In later editions up to 1952 it increased this prewar estimate (without explanation) by a million, to 16,643,120. It gave the 1950 population as 11,940,000, which, if subtracted from the first figure given for 1939, gives a reduction of nearly four millions (though not of six). However, it based even this “estimate” on another estimate, namely, that in 1950 the Jewish population of the U.S.S.R. was 2,000,000. This still left unanswered Mr. Leftwich’s question in respect of Commissar Mikhoels’s statement, that in 1943 the Jewish population of the U.S.S.R. was 5,000,000.

In England Whitaker‘s Almanac, of similar eminence, struggled with the same problem. In its 1949 and 1950 issues it gave the 1939 “estimated” Jewish world population as 16,838,000 and that of 1949 as 11,385,200, a reduction of nearly 5,500,000. However, the figures given for Jewish population in separate countries added up to 13,120,000 (not 11,385,200). Incidentally, Whitaker‘s in 1950 gave the Jewish population of the U.S.S.R. as 5,300,000, against the World Almanac‘s figure for the same year, of 2,000,000.

Both these publications are of the highest repute for painstaking accuracy and the fault is not theirs; in this one matter alone only Jewish “estimates” are available, and for obvious reasons no dependence can be placed on these. I pointed out the discrepancies in a book of 1951 and observed that Whitaker‘s in 1952 no longer contained these “estimates of Jewish populations”; apparently it had abandoned the statistical quest as hopeless, and was right to do so. Another encyclopaedia in its 1950 edition also dropped the subject.

Finally, the New York Times, which may be described as the world’s leading Jewish newspaper (it is Jewish-owned and New York is today primarily a Jewish city) in 1948 published what claimed to be an authoritative statistical article, computing the Jewish population of the world (three years after the war’s end) between 15,700,000 and 18,600,000. If either figure was near truth this meant that the Jewish world-population had remained stationary or increased during the war years.

The number of Jews who were killed or perished will never be known, for the reasons already stated and partly discovered by Professor Toynbee in his footnote to history. The very term “Jew” is indefinable; Jews are often not isolated in statistics; and at no time can the number of living Jews in the world be ascertained with any approach to accuracy. Indeed, any attempt to reach statistical clarity through census or immigration data is attacked as “discrimination” and “anti-semitism.”

This state of statistical affairs is now well-nigh universal, so that the whole question is a mystery and has deliberately been made one. None can even guess the number of Jews whose deaths, during the war, were not natural or the result of bombing and the like, but who were done to death by the Nazis. My opinion is that, whatever was the number of Jews in the countries overrun by Hitler, the number of their victims was in roughly that proportion to the total population stricken, Polish, Czech and other. I have found this to be the opinion of all persons known to me who survived the concentration camps and occupations. Having suffered themselves, their feeling for Jewish victims was as strong as for all others, but they could not understand why the one case of the Jews was singled out and the number of Jewish victims monstrously exaggerated.

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borjastick
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Re: Issues with post-WWII Jewish census figures

Postby borjastick » 3 months 3 weeks ago (Fri Jun 26, 2020 1:33 am)

The first rule of jewish arithmetic is it's wrong.

Jews tell stories, it's the basis of their psyche. They make stuff up, they change like chameleons to adapt around their environment, so anything to get sympathy and acceptance will do for them. They know full well that the claims of six million dead are just tosh, utter tosh. So they adapt their story around it to suit the claim, to reinforce it somehow.

Also note how jews are very quiet on the BLM wrecking ball game show currently on your TV every night. Mainly because jews were up to their necks in slavery.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Issues with post-WWII Jewish census figures

Postby slob » 3 months 1 week ago (Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:50 am)

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Re: Issues with post-WWII Jewish census figures

Postby Archie » 3 months 4 days ago (Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:13 pm)

I was taking a look at Reitlinger's book (the first edition from 1953) and considering that he's seen as an "orthodox" scholar I was a bit surprised at how critical he is on the six million and the census figures. He gives a range for Jewish deaths of a mere 4,194,200-4,581,200, figures that could not be published today. Apparently back in 1953 writers were not quite so constrained as in later decades.

But in the course of writing this book I have been forced to the conclusion that, while it cannot be determined even within a half-million of accuracy, the true figure may be considerably smaller.

The figure used at Nuremberg was supplied by the World Jewish Congress at a moment when little reputable data were available.

In April, 1946, the ‘Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry regarding the problems of European Jewry and Palestine,’ published an analysis of the Nuremberg indictment figure of 5,700,000--or to be exact 5,721,800 missing European Jews. I use these more detailed statistics purely as a point of departure. Some of them appear to me sound, even over-cautious, others are demonstrably ill-founded.

That difference of a million and a half [note: between 4.5M and 6M] is largely to be traced to the highly conjectural estimates of the losses in territory, at present controlled by the Soviet Union, and in Rumania, where figures have been adduced that have no relationship with the facts as known.

I have drawn much of my evidence from the figures compiled for Heydrich and Himmler by the Sicherheitsdienst of SD, generally referred to as the Gestapo. These balance-sheets became the gruesome exhibits of the later Nuremberg trials, and it must be observed that, if they contain inaccuracies, they are generally due to over-statement. Their value is relative but it is at least higher than that of estimates which are based solely on alleged pre-war and post-war population returns, the latter being reached by deducting from the former the figure it is desired to prove.

Already before the war there were widely differing estimates of the Jewish populations of Russia, Poland, Hungary, Rumania, and the Balkans, although in most of these countries there was a separate civil registry for Jews. Even in Western Europe, where the use of statistics was less open to reproach, the estimates of Jewish populations are neither more consistent nor more reliable. Since the war few European governments have conducted any census of which detailed figures are available. In the case of Russia particularly, to which the largest group of Jews escaped, there is no present basis for assessing the number of survivors. In April, 1946, the Anglo-American Palestine Committee accepted a figure of 2,665,00 Jews. In January, 1947, the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee proposed 2,255,000. In 1952, Mr. Solomon Schwarz decided on 1,850,000 for the vastly increased Soviet Union of the post-war era. The Institute of Jewish Affairs in 1950 had calculated as low as 1,600,000. Thus, there is a whole million difference between the highest and lowest of these estimates, none of which are realistic. For it is quite possible that the number of non-Russian Jews who were moved to the depths of the Soviet Union exceeded the number of Russian Jews who were trapped by the Germans, and in this case the number of Jewish survivors should exceed the approximate three million Jews who lived in the Soviet Union of 1939.

Regarding this issue of Jews escaping into Russia, there were reports to this effect during the war. And the numbers quoted were rather substantial.

“Report Bares Fate Of 8,300,000 Jews," New York Times, August 27, 1943, p. 7

More than 3,000,000 Jews have been destroyed by planned starvation, forced labor, deportations, pogroms and methodical murders in German-run extermination centers in eastern Europe since the outbreak of the war in 1939, according to the report, while 1,800,000 Jews have been saved by migration into the interior of the Soviet Union and 180,000 have succeeded in emigrating to other countries.


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