A user by the name of 'Incitatus' has made various comment, all of which would be worthy of debate on the forum. But one specific statement he made in regard to this Operation where Jews were supposedly exterminated by being thrown into Swamps.
What about bargain-basement killing: drive them (after killing the men) into swamps? Didn’t work well:“Driving women and children into the swamps was not as successful as it should have been, since the swamps were not deep enough for them to sink. Because of a depth of one metre, most cases reached solid ground (probably sand) so that drowning was not possible.”
-SS Sturmbannführer Franz Magill ‘Bericht über den Verlauf der Pripjet-Aktion’ 12 Aug 1941 [Burleigh ‘The Third Reich’ p.566]
What tragedy. Low-cost killing didn’t turn out so well. Who knew? Another day in Austrian Hitler’s Reich.
This fellow clearly has hold very strong reverence for authority, for he claims that
Mr. Unz seems to cherry-pick favorite sources without vetting (reading current historians), why bother?
So you know what kind of Joker we're dealing with.
When confronted about this 'Magill' report, he says:
Was Franz “driving women and children into the swamps” for ‘resettlement’? Why did he lament “drowning was not possible”? What about Himmler’s 2 Aug 1941 order to shoot all male Jews over age 14 and drown women and children? In the end they too were shot.
And at no point does he provide the document for this report, nor the text of it. He just proclaims these things based on assertions made by 'historians'. As you can see, he also makes another claim at the end there but doesn't source that one either.
SO I'm curious, does anyone know if this "punitive operation" as it was supposedly called by the Germans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pripyat_swamps_(punitive_operation) has been dealt with by revisionists? If there's more info on it? What's the situation basically.
To be honest the wiki treats the operation to be more like dealing with Partisans rather than indiscriminately killing Jews for being Jews:
The "Special order" of Himmler dated 28 July 1941 ordered von dem Bach to harshly exterminate the Pripyat swamps region's population "with disagreeable attitude to Germans" — to shoot men, deport women and children, confiscate livestock and food, burn habitations. On the other hand, population "showing agreeable attitude to Germans" was to be "spared" and even to be partially armed.
I have no clue what 'special order' this is. All the sources as one might imagine goes to books.
However, imagine my shock, when the wiki article says:
Also, Himmler ordered von dem Bach to present him with the military plan of the extermination operation.
 This plan has not been found, so the information on it has had to be reconstructed. Litvin, 2003
That's odd though, didn't the article just say that a plan issued by Himmler on July 28th ordered extermination?
Alas another plan that has never been found! Only 'reconstructed' by historians who, as we know, have total intellectual liberty to discover the truth whatever it may be, and certainly have the academic rigor to do so even if it means an aspect of the Holocaust is untrue! Wait. No. That's not how research on the Third Reich and WW2 work. Oh well, I guess we'll just have to test the merits of their 'reconstruction'. Unfortunately this cannot be done at this moment, for only one book in all the notes on this article are available online.
I managed to find a copy of the book "Fegelein's Horsemen and Genocidal Warfare: The SS Cavalry Brigade in the Soviet Union." by Henning Pieper which is the source used most in the wiki article. https://libgen.is/book/index.php?md5=0824CB20C0018A73E9277D8545089A6F
The source for footnote 9 in the wiki article takes us to page 80-81 of this book. Which reads:
On this occasion, Knoblauch delivered a special order from Heinrich Himmler, the so-called Kommandosonderbefehl. It assessed the capabilities of the mounted SS units, defined the guidelines for their actions in this area, including military tactics, and also established the close collaboration between units of the Waffen-SS and order police. The marshes were to be patrolled and ‘cleansed’ of ‘marauders’ and partisans. As far as the local population was concerned, the order divided it up into groups which were viewed as being well-disposed to the Germans, such as Ukrainians, and potentially hostile groups, like Russians and Poles. Jews were not mentioned explicitly, but the order demanded that if the inhabitants of the area were ‘racially and humanly inferior’ they were to be shot ‘if they were suspected of supporting the partisans’. Moreover, women and children were to be deported (without any further specification), livestock and food should be seized, and villages burned to the ground.4
This pretty much confirms what I asserted before. This is pretty much just an operation to weed out partisans. Brutal, but not Genocide. I am very very sceptical of the origins of this order, and I think i'm right to suspect something suspicious about the accusation that the document used the words ' ‘racially and humanly inferior’. And for some reason, those 'racial inferiors' were only to be shot IF they were partisans/supporting partisans? Quite surprising isn't it? We're usually told that being 'racially inferior' was enough to warrant being killed by the Nazis. Why the change of heart here?
The source for this is footnote 4: KTB KSRFSS, entry from 27 July 1941
I'm not sure what 'KTB KSRFSS' is, I suspect it's a document or some kind of list of documents? I have no idea. It's not in the abbreviations of the book, perhaps I missed something?
The book goes on to say:
This rather general and very brutal instruction included every possible political, military, or racial opponent of the Germans and was in breach of the Hague Convention, which forbade any inclusion of the civilian population in combat operations, let alone the pre-emptive destruction of settlements based on politically motivated suspicions. It marks the beginning of ideological warfare in the Pripet Marshes and was the first step of Himmler’s orders for murder.
This I found odd, because I thought it was common knowledge that Hitler specifically said he was going to do away with convention warfare, meaning, playing fair and by international law when dealing with the Soviets because the Soviets from the beginning didn't agree to any of these conventions. The Geneva convention comes to mind. The author says this as if we're supposed to be 'shocked' by this intended unique evil, when in actuality this was how warfare in the Soviet Union HAD to be fought in order for the Germans to have a chance of winning.
The wiki article says pretty much exactly what our friend 'Incitatus' said earlier.
Himmler notified Fegelein by telegram on 1 August that the numbers killed so far were too low. A few days later, Himmler issued regimental order no. 42, which called for all male Jews over the age of 14 to be killed. The women and children were to be driven into the swamps and drowned. Thus Fegelein's units were among the first in the Holocaust to wipe out entire Jewish communities. As the water in the swamps was too shallow and some areas had no swamps, it proved impractical to drown the women and children, so in the end they were shot as well.
I guess this book acts as a response to my own question where Incitatus got that little claim from, for he's basically quoted the wiki article verbatim.
The source in the wiki article is the same book I just quoted. This time it's footnotes 11 and 12, which tells us that the information for these claims can be found on pages 86, 88-90 of the book. Let's see what it says, and what the sources are.
According to the communication between the regiments, the HSSPF Centre and the Kommandostab, about 1,000 male Jews, communists, and soldiers of the Red Army had been shot in the first few days of the new mission.34 The cavalrymen had not even come across major Jewish communities yet, but nevertheless this policy was far from the ‘systematic combing of the marshes’ the Reichsführer had in mind. Thus, Himmler sent a telegram to Fegelein on 1 August in which he considered the number of civilians who had been killed so far as ‘too insignificant’. He stated that it was ‘necessary to act radically’ and that ‘the detachment commanders display too much leniency in carrying out their operations’. The number of people shot, he demanded, was to be reported to him daily.35 This again exemplifies Himmler’s practice of stepping up the killing process through personal visits in the summer of 1941. On several other occasions the Reichsführer directly intervened: apart from the above-mentioned large-scale massacres at Bialystok and BrestLitovsk, this was also the case at Grodno and Lida in late June, where he found that ‘only 96 Jews had been liquidated’ in the first days after the German invasion and stated that this ‘was to be intensified significantly’. As a result, local SS units immediately began to execute more Jews.36
34 Situation report of the HSSPF Centre, 2 August 1941, quoted in Christian Gerlach, Kalkulierte Morde. Die deutsche Wirtschafts- und Vernichtungspolitik in Weißrußland 1941 bis 1944 (Hamburg: Hamburger Ed., 1999), p. 559; Tätigkeitsbericht für die Zeit vom 28. – 30.7. 1941, SS-Kav. Rgt. 2, in: VUA, Kommandostab RFSS, box 24, file 2; Tätigkeitsbericht für die Zeit v. 31.7. – 3.8. 1941, SS-Kav. Rgt. 2, in: VUA, Kommandostab RFSS, box 24, file 2.
35 Radio message no. 37 from the commander of the SS Cavalry Brigade to the mounted detachments, quoted in: Soviet Government Statements on Nazi Atrocities (London: Hutchinson, 1946), p. 46; Cüppers, Wegbereiter, pp. 142–3 and p. 153; Gerlach, Morde, p. 559.
36 Longerich, Himmler, pp. 543–4.
The author tries and fails to wiggle Hitler's lack of involvement out of the picture
Hitler himself no longer had to issue any further orders, as he was able to rely on his driven and absolutely ruthless (if not Machiavellian) masterminds, such as Himmler, Heydrich, and von dem Bach-Zelewski.37
Within the SS Cavalry Brigade, the same principle applied to the commanding officers. The example of Hermann Fegelein and Gustav Lombard shows the gradual process of how Himmler led them to become mass murderers: they could be sure that a more radical interpretation of killing orders would be according to the Führer’s will.38
And so there it is, Hitler didn't even know, hence 'interpretation' but he surely would've agreed with it!!! He claims...
For the cavalry units, this meant that the scope of the killings was to be increased by including Jewish women and children, and thus targeting entire Jewish communities. This directive came in the form of a clarification of regimental order no. 42. It has been preserved in two different forms: the statement of a former messenger of the 2nd Regiment and a radio message received by the mounted detachment of the same unit. According to the testimony, Himmler ordered the SS Cavalry Brigade to shoot all male Jews from the age of 14 in the ‘combing areas’. Women and children were to be driven into the swamps and drowned. The Jews were to be considered as the reservoir of the partisans and as their supporters. Executions were to be conducted on instructions of local branches of the security service of the SS. In the town of Pinsk, executions were
to be carried out by the first and the fourth squadron of the regiment, which were to be dispatched at once. The operation was to start immediately and was to be reported on a regular basis.39 The radio protocol, on the other hand, is very plain; it reads: ‘Explicit order from the R[eichs]F[ührer]-SS: All Jews must be shot, drive Jewish women into the swamps’.40
In both regiments of the brigade, the commanders passed the instruction on to the mounted detachments, which organised the deployment of individual units. Squadron leaders were informed about the Himmler order by a courier in most cases; some received it per radio message. They in turn briefed their subordinates and then sent them out to execute the order.44 But despite the fact that all SS cavalrymen received the same instructions, documents from the two regiments and post-war
testimonies prove that Himmler’s directive was carried out in different ways by the two regiments of the brigade. Sturmbannführer Gustav Lombard, the commander of the mounted detachment of the 1st Regiment, slightly reworded the order by demanding from his men: ‘No male Jew stays alive, no residual family in the villages’.45 Following his instructions, all Jews encountered by Lombard’s men were killed immediately in mass shootings, a method that was cynically termed Entjudung (dejewification) by their commander. Lombard had borrowed this neologism from the Nazi economy, which had used it for the exclusion of Jews from business since 1933; according to Martin Cüppers, he was the first person ever to use the word in the context of physical destruction.46 The principle of Entjudung resulted in the murder of the entire Jewish population in an area of more than 4,000 square kilometres within two weeks.47 As they failed to actually ‘drive Jewish women into the swamps’, the men under Lombard’s command changed their killing method. A former soldier stated that when the women did not want to move on and held up their children to keep them from drowning, the soldiers ruthlessly machine-gunned those wading in the water.48 After this incident, women and children were shot at the same killing sites as the men. The troopers of the 2nd Regiment under the command of Sturmbannführer Franz Magill, on the other hand, gave up the idea of killing all Jewish women and children very quickly:Jewish looters [Jewish males] were shot. Only a few craftsmen who were working in repair shops of the Wehrmacht were left behind. To drive women and children into the swamps did not have the desired effect as the swamps were not deep enough [for them] to sink. In a depth of 1 metre there was solid ground (possibly sand) in most cases so that sinking [bodies] was not possible.49
In the following weeks, mostly male Jews were executed by members of the 2nd Regiment. In some cases, women and children were included in the massacres as well: at Adryšyn, a village that was not close to any waters or swamps, the troopers took their order literally and drowned their victims in a pond.50 This, however, was an exception. Throughout
the first mission in the Pripet Marshes, Magill followed a different strategy than Lombard, which he justified with the unsuccessful attempt of driving people into the swamps. It was not until the second mission that the men of the 2nd Regiment began to kill Jewish women and children indiscriminately.51
39 Justiz und NS-Verbrechen: Sammlung deutscher Strafurteile wegen nationalsozialistischer Tötungsverbrechen 1945–1966. Bd. 20, p. 48.
40 Radio message, KavRgt. 2 an Reitende Abteilung, 1 August 1941 (10 a.m.),
in: BArchF, RS 3-8/36.
44 Abschlußbericht der ZStl vom 20.8. 1963, p. 366; Vernehmung von Georg
V. vom 13.9. 1962, in: BArchL, B 162/5541, pp. g10–11; Justiz und NS-Verbrechen: Sammlung deutscher Strafurteile wegen nationalsozialistischer Tötungsverbrechen 1945–1966. Bd. 20, pp. 46–9; Zwischenbericht der Sonderkommission Z, p. 576.
45 Abteilungsbefehl Nr. 28, Kommandeur Reitende Abteilung, 1 August 1941,
in: BArchF, RS 4/441
46 Cüppers, Wegbereiter, pp. 143–4, and Cüppers, ‘Vorreiter der Shoah’, pp. 90–2.
47 Cüppers, ‘Vorreiter der Shoah’, p. 96.
48 Vernehmung von Klaas K. vom 9.4. 1963, in: BArchL, B 162/5542, p. j68; Müller-Tupath, Becher, p. 82 and p. 107; Birn, ‘Zweierlei Wirklichkeit’, p. 278.
49 Bericht über den Verlauf der Pripjet-Aktion vom 27.7. – 11.8. 1941, 12 August 1941, quoted in Baade, Unsere Ehre heißt Treue, pp. 219–20.
50 Cüppers, Wegbereiter, p. 153.
51 Cüppers, ‘Vorreiter der Shoah’, pp. 93–6; Cüppers, Wegbereiter, pp. 164–5
and pp. 196–7.
it just goes on and on and one like this. Not sure what to say other than this is out of my depth.
I suppose all I can say is that I guess some of this could be true. I find it odd that they'd let some partisans go when the author proclaims (see footnote 37) that the Germans wanted to kill 30 million Slavs...And in fact says that was the 'aim' of the Russian Campaign.
Some killings here and there, although brutal cannot be judged when the over bearing false Holocaust narrative has genuine events entwined with it. I think that's the problem here.