Another Einsatzgruppen Shooting Photo (Debunk request)

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TruthSeeker7
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Another Einsatzgruppen Shooting Photo (Debunk request)

Postby TruthSeeker7 » 5 months 1 week ago (Fri Nov 06, 2020 2:49 pm)

Here it is. Need a solid refutation that will destroy the credibility of this photo.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldWar2/comm ... urce=share

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Re: Another Einsatzgruppen Shooting Photo (Debunk request)

Postby Hannover » 5 months 6 days ago (Fri Nov 06, 2020 4:13 pm)

Image

Seen this one before as well.
Yes there were legal executions of illegal, non-uniformed combatants by the Einsatzgruppen.
No, the Germans would not have allowed so many people to hang out and witness what is alleged to be a massive war crime.
What is supposed to be piles of corpse don't even resemble corpses, piles of clothing is more like it.
And notice that we do not see any excavations of the allegedly known sites.
Another Amateur Hour cut & paste job.

I repeat:
Per their alleged ‘Holocaust by Bullets’ the fraudulent 'holocaust' Industry now claims that ca. 2,000,000 Jews were shot by the Einsatzgruppen into huge pits, the enormous mass graves & human remains are claimed to exist in specifically known places.
So, is that:
100 graves of 20,000?
200 graves of 10,000?
400 graves of 5,000?
500 graves of 4,000?
1000 graves of 2000?
2000 graves of 1000?

So, TruthSeeker7, why do you even think this 'image' is credible?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Another Einsatzgruppen Shooting Photo (Debunk request)

Postby TruthSeeker7 » 5 months 6 days ago (Fri Nov 06, 2020 5:35 pm)

So, TruthSeeker7, why do you even think this 'image' is credible?


Well mostly because it seems to display men in German uniforms executing many men in civilian clothing en masse which goes along with the exterminationist history. The post is getting a lot of attention and if it turns out we have evidence that image in particular is faked it should be made known.

Also, I seemingly noticed the head of a dead body around the bottom right. I am just looking for more context on the photo which is not skewed by the believers. Maybe they are partisans? Do we have records of those men being partisans?

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Re: Another Einsatzgruppen Shooting Photo (Debunk request)

Postby Lamprecht » 5 months 6 days ago (Fri Nov 06, 2020 6:56 pm)

Always with the very low quality photographs. I found these 3 with reverse image search which are somewhat better quality:

Image
https://pic8.co/sh/v1dC78.jpeg

Image
https://pic8.co/sh/OqhuHY.jpeg

Image
https://pic8.co/sh/NBjg0O.jpeg

It is from the USHMM: https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/pa19151
Men with an unidentified unit execute a group of Soviet civilians kneeling by the side of a mass grave.

Photograph Number: 89063

Date: 1941 June 22 - September 1941
Locale: USSR

What is there to debunk? It is an "unidentified unit" according to the USHMM - who wrote that caption and how did they figure that out?

And what is this photograph supposed to be evidence of, exactly? Does anyone dispute that people were being shot in Europe in the 1940s in an event known as "The Second World War" - really? Executions of civilians in reprisal measures was not illegal under international law at the time. All sides killed civilians in WWII.

Arthur Butz:
"At the time of the invasion of Russia in June 1941, there was a Fuhrer order declaring, in anticipation of an identical Soviet policy, that the war with Russia was not to be fought on the basis of the traditional rules of warfare. Necessary measures were to be taken to counter partisan activity… Everybody knew that meant executions of partisans and persons collaborating with partisans. The dirty task was assigned to four Einsatzgruppen... which had a total of about 3,000 men... We have had occasion to note in several instances that the Jews did, in fact, pose a security menace to the German rear in the war... The task of the Einsatzgruppen was to deal with such dangers by all necessary means, so we need not be told much more to surmise that the Einsatzgruppen must have shot many Jews, although we do not know whether 'many' means 5,000, 25,000 or 100,000. Naturally, many non-Jews were also executed." (The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, chapter 6 https://codoh.com/library/chapter/1893/)

Mattogno, Graf, and Kues:
"We have no difficulty admitting that the German reprisal measures in the East, and not only there, were at times excessive and disproportionate, sometimes even performed with false pretenses, but this has nothing to do with a 'radicalization' which would have almost automatically led to a mass extermination of the Jews." (The “Extermination Camps” of “Aktion Reinhardt”. https://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?page_id=28)

Germar Rudolf:
"Dr. jur. Karl Siegert, Professor at the University of Göttingen, drew up a legal expert report shortly after the end of World War Two, in which he showed that reprisal killings were, to a certain degree, common practice and not against international law. Hence, reprisals and shootings of hostages can be considered as tactically questionable and possibly as morally reprehensible, but strictly speaking, this was not against the law at that time." (Partisan War and Reprisal Killings. https://codoh.com/library/document/part ... llings/en/)

Mark Mazower in his book 'Hitler's Empire' notes that partisan warfare and the brutality of it was not a specifically Nazi invention, but rather a traditional method of European warfare, stating (p. 353):
"The uncomfortable truth is that the counter-insurgency war was more the product of a certain European way of fighting than of Nazism itself."
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer

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Re: Another Einsatzgruppen Shooting Photo (Debunk request)

Postby Hannover » 5 months 6 days ago (Fri Nov 06, 2020 7:45 pm)

TruthSeeker7 wrote:
So, TruthSeeker7, why do you even think this 'image' is credible?


Well mostly because it seems to display men in German uniforms executing many men in civilian clothing en masse which goes along with the exterminationist history. The post is getting a lot of attention and if it turns out we have evidence that image in particular is faked it should be made known.

Also, I seemingly noticed the head of a dead body around the bottom right. I am just looking for more context on the photo which is not skewed by the believers. Maybe they are partisans? Do we have records of those men being partisans?

Image
- "Many men"? "En masse"? LOL
- The image shows THREE men appearing to be shot.

- I see maybe ONE figure that sort of resembles a human corpse below, who knows if he was not just pasted in? The rest is nothing but piles of clothing or whatever in the laughable attempt to make it look like many others.

- Once again, you have bloodless "corpses". LOL

- Do you have records which proves these 3 men were not illegal partisans?

- Indeed, as I stated and you ignored, non-uniformed combatants were subject to legal execution.

- I have stated why the image is fake; you nor anyone else can refute my points.

- You or others have not, cannot show us the alleged enormous human remains which are claimed to be a result of the Einsatzgruppen, after all, they are claimed to be in precisely known locations. They could start by excavating this one. LOL

- I have demonstrated the absurd impossibility of the ridiculous '2M Jews murdered by the Einsatzgruppen', the onus is upon the accusers to prove their assertions about them.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Another Einsatzgruppen Shooting Photo (Debunk request)

Postby Lamprecht » 5 months 6 days ago (Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:20 pm)

TruthSeeker7 wrote:it seems to display men in German uniforms executing many men in civilian clothing en masse which goes along with the exterminationist history.

People being shot, including civilians, during WWII is not disputed by anyone. Millions of civilians died on both sides of the conflict.
Is there evidence that this was a war crime?

Maybe they are partisans? Do we have records of those men being partisans?

This is a big mistake people make. "Partisan reprisals" does not mean "shooting partisans" it also includes the execution of civilians. This was not something the Germans invented, it was not unprecedented, and it was practiced by all sides in WWII and has continued since then.

The Einsatzgruppen was created in order to carry out security missions in the occupied eastern territories, in response to the guerrilla warfare tactics being used. These partisan warfare tactics were a violation of international law. These communist partisans - which you can just as well call "terrorists" - were very active in specific regions and harassed the German troops considerably. They terrorized local populations as well, often rampaging through villages stealing food and other resources or executing civilians for suspected "collaboration" with the occupation troops, raping and looting. They were engaged in illegal warfare.

From the IMT proceedings (vol 21) 21 August 1946, German defense attorney Dr. Hans Laternser:
"Affidavits 906 to 931 give examples of the fighting methods of the partisans, while Affidavits 906 to 920 describe particularly dreadful atrocities committed by partisan bands. Affidavits 921 to 924 prove the partisans' actions in violation of international law, with regard to clothing, weapons, and other details. Affidavits 925 to 931 describe the extent of sabotage against railroads. That in spite of this the Germans fought according to the rules of international law, is proved by Affidavits 932 to 970. They show that the partisans were treated like prisoners of war." https://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/08-21-46.asp


Similarly, at the Hostages Trial (vol 11, pg. 1269) regarding the response to partisan warfare in the Balkan region:
"We agree, therefore, with the contention... that the guerrilla fighters... were not lawful belligerents entitling them to prison of war status upon capture. We are obliged to hold that such guerrillas were francs tireurs who, upon capture, could be subjected to the death penalty. Consequently, no criminal responsibility attaches to the defendant List because of the execution of captured partisans..."

According to international law at the time, reprisal shootings of civilians was not unlawful. Is there any evidence at all that these people being shot were Jews who were killed solely for being Jews?
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer

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Re: Another Einsatzgruppen Shooting Photo (Debunk request)

Postby Archie » 5 months 6 days ago (Fri Nov 06, 2020 9:51 pm)

TruthSeeker7 wrote:
So, TruthSeeker7, why do you even think this 'image' is credible?


Well mostly because it seems to display men in German uniforms executing many men in civilian clothing en masse which goes along with the exterminationist history. The post is getting a lot of attention and if it turns out we have evidence that image in particular is faked it should be made known.

Also, I seemingly noticed the head of a dead body around the bottom right. I am just looking for more context on the photo which is not skewed by the believers. Maybe they are partisans? Do we have records of those men being partisans?


When they start pivoting to Einsatzgruppen I view that as an admission of defeat.

The story is: extermination program, six million, death camps, gas chambers. That's what they need to prove. None of the key pillars stand up to scrutiny so they try to shift to defending a much weaker position, such as claiming some Jews were shot in the East. During a war. You say the picture "goes along with" the Holocaust, but it isn't evidence for any of the primary claims.

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Re: Another Einsatzgruppen Shooting Photo (Debunk request)

Postby borjastick » 5 months 6 days ago (Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:50 am)

To me this is a real execution. So what. It happened right or wrong. By us and them. Shit happens in war.

For those of you in the US you may not have heard of the recent case of Marine A. He was a British Royal Marine in combat in Afghanistan I believe. His unit had had a terrible week or two under fire and taking injuries and deaths from Taliban arseholes and then they went in hard against these people. Someone had a Go-pro running and filmed him saying he would finish off an injured Taliban fighter who they had just shot in a contact situation. He then steps away from the camera and shoots the terrorist dead. So what, do I care. No.

It happens.

Same as above in this picture the caption would be pivotal. If this was captioned 'Innocent jews shot after their village was invaded' it would make some believe the holocaust was real.

However if it was captioned 'Legal execution of partisans who had ambushed and killed 36 soldiers in a village in Ukraine' you might think differently.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

'We don't need evidence, we have survivors' - israeli politician

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Re: Another Einsatzgruppen Shooting Photo (Debunk request)

Postby Lamprecht » 5 months 5 days ago (Sat Nov 07, 2020 11:02 pm)

That we see adult men being shot should raise some alarm bells here. What percent of adult males were not involved in the war effort?

In the USA, roughly 1/3 of men over 15 years of age served in the armed forces during WWII (source: PDF).

In the UK, the National Service (Armed Forces) Act 1939 enforced full conscription on all male British subjects between 18 and 41.

On 9 February 1942, Stalin ordered that all men ages 17-30 were to be conscripted. This included men in territories occupied by the Red Army.
"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance -- that principle is contempt prior to investigation."
— Herbert Spencer

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Shooting someone in the head at close range?

Postby Merlin300 » 5 months 5 days ago (Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:11 pm)

The standard rifle of the Wehrmacht was the 7.92×57mm Mauser. Fired at close range, as in the picture, it would have blown a large visible hole
on its way out of the skull. It seems as if there is gun smoke in the picture but no impact effects on the kneeling "victims" or on the bodies
in the trench.
Having a crowd of people standing around, even close to the line of fire, during a series of executions by gun fire also seems dangerous, although good propaganda.

While executions of partisans by the Germans occurred, this picture is probably staged.
Given the extensive history of Soviet fake propaganda, the USHMM is irresponsible in posting such a questionable picture as "evidence."

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/201 ... -fake-news

http://www.hoaxorfact.com/crime/soviet- ... d-war.html

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Re: Shooting someone in the head at close range?

Postby Hannover » 5 months 5 days ago (Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:33 pm)

Merlin300 wrote:The standard rifle of the Wehrmacht was the 7.92×57mm Mauser. Fired at close range, as in the picture, it would have blown a large visible hole
on its way out of the skull. It seems as if there is gun smoke in the picture but no impact effects on the kneeling "victims" or on the bodies
in the trench.
Having a crowd of people standing around, even close to the line of fire, during a series of executions by gun fire also seems dangerous, although good propaganda.

While executions of partisans by the Germans occurred, this picture is probably staged.
Given the extensive history of Soviet fake propaganda, the USHMM is irresponsible in posting such a questionable picture as "evidence."

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/201 ... -fake-news

http://www.hoaxorfact.com/crime/soviet- ... d-war.html

Image

Excellent observations.

To your point, what would necessarily have been exploding heads & bodies are not even pushed forward in the slightest.

And of course, where's the proof that these are even supposed to be Jews?

The ridiculous "photo" is as fake as a three dollar bill.

- Hannover

Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the 'holocaust' storyline is the message.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Shallow graves

Postby Merlin300 » 5 months 4 days ago (Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:37 pm)

Image

One could also wonder about the depth of the "mass grave."

If the earth along the side of the trench were to be pushed back on top of the bodies, it appears as if the bodies would be
within two feet of the surface (0.5 meter), as measured from the vertical cut in the side of the trench.
If there were any concern with secrecy, it makes no sense to murder people and then leave them in a shallow grave.

By comparison the graves at Katyn were much deeper, 1.85 to 3.30 meters.
The depth of the various graves was between 1.85 and 3.30 metres. The central sector of the longer arm of the L-shaped grave was the deepest place. The differences in the depth could be explained by the varying levels of the bottom of the graves. Thus, the depth of grave No. 6 at its north-eastern end was 2.10, at the south-western end only 1.74 metres.

As a rule the graves were filled with bodies up to within 1.5 metres of the surface.
http://www.allworldwars.com/Katyn-Files.html


Additionally-
1. The sloping sides of the piles along the trench shown no sign of blood or struggle or people sliding into the trench.
2. The "bodies" nearest the camera show no signs of gun shot wounds or blood.
3. The bodies nearest the camera are positioned lengthwise along the trench. One has even tucked himself up. That is not how bodies
would have uniformly tumbled into the trench if shot kneeing along the embankment.
4. The rifle of one of the shooters is off target, elevated well above the level of the kneeing victims
-
From a forensic perspective, in addition to multiple bodies, there would have been brass cartridges left at or near the surface or mixed in
with the piled earth as it was pushed back over the bodies. There would have been bullets or bullet fragments in the earth.
Meaning that this shooting would have left traces visible or discoverable for decades.

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Re: Another Einsatzgruppen Shooting Photo (Debunk request)

Postby Hannover » 5 months 4 days ago (Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:53 pm)

Image

Note that some of 'corpses" appear to be wrapped up in sheet-like cloth bags.
As if the Germans would have jumped into the 'mass grave' and wrapped & bagged some, but not others.
Of course we see no supply of cloth bags / sheets awaiting use.

- Hannover

This is too easy.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Another Einsatzgruppen Shooting Photo (Debunk request)

Postby Merlin300 » 5 months 4 days ago (Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:56 pm)

The effects of shooting someone in the head at close range with a rifle can be seen in
a post-War execution.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QZFEi29OZo at 1:29 to 1:50

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Re: Another Einsatzgruppen Shooting Photo (Debunk request)

Postby Hektor » 5 months 4 days ago (Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:20 pm)

borjastick wrote:....

However if it was captioned 'Legal execution of partisans who had ambushed and killed 36 soldiers in a village in Ukraine' you might think differently.

Partial omission of important details is the method of choice in many cases.

But then the audience is also strongly conditioned, that even mentioning more context won't hit a nail with them.


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