Reserve police battalion 101

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grenadier
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Reserve police battalion 101

Postby grenadier » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Oct 01, 2004 10:02 am)

Christopher Browning wrote a very disturbing book; “Ordinary men: reserve police battalion 101 and the final solution in Poland”. Browning says he studied the interrogations of more than 200 battalion men. This battalion, according to mr.Browning conducted a large number of mass shootings and brutal deportations.
I dont understand why the policemen, whom were tried in the late 1960s and early 1970s in Germany( that is, in fair trials i suppose), would have confessed to the crimes if they had not commited them.
Any thoughts on Mr.Browning´s book?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:03 pm)

Hi grenadier, welcome the Forum.

This topic has been handled here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... hlight=101
Have a look at the posts and let us know what you think.

As to confessions, I'm afraid we need to be specific here. Who confessed? What exactly did they confess to? What was their sentence?

Any forensic studies of mass graves to confirm the alleged mass shootings?

Is Browning credible?


- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:34 pm)

The following is part of a translation I did a while back about this book by Browning. See also Mattogno: "Majdanek" http://vho.org/dl/ENG/ccm.zip
about Reserve Police Battalion 101's involvement in the so-called "Erntefest" in Majdanek.

Professors Christopher Browning and Christa Kamenetsky: Two Secretive , Shoddy, and Venomous Authors
By Ronald Klett


When a published author receives a letter of inquiry, one would suppose that he would answer, would you not? If he fails to answer the first inquiry, then surely the second; but if not the second, absolutely the third. I have written to authors far more important and competent in the field of history ?? Arthur R. Butz, Robert Faurisson, David Irving, John Toland ?? and have received my answer. But Dr. Christopher Browning, Professor of History, Pacific Lutheran University,1 Tacoma, Washington, and Christa Kamenetsky, Professor of English, Central Michigan University, Mount Pleasant, are silent. Why? The following narrative will answer the question.

We begin with Prof. Browning, who was a major contributor to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, no less than twenty?one entries in its four volumes owing to him2; who is also a member of the advisory board of the Simon Wiesenthal Center for Holocaust Studies, Los Angeles3; and who was for the period 1984/1985 a Fellow at the Institute for Advanced Studies, Hebrew University, Jerusalem.4

His most recent book, as I write, is Ordinary Men: Reserve Police Battalion 101 and the Final Solution in Poland.5 It rests very largely on the "investigation and legal prosecution of Reserve Police Battalion 101," which began in 1962 and ended in 1972.6 "In the case of ... 101, ??? there are few contemporary documents and none that deal specifically with its killing activities."7 "The interrogations of 210 men from ??? 101" "constitute the prime source for this study."8 Of these 210, fourteen men were indicted, and eventually three were sentenced to prison, one to eight years, another to four, the third to three and one?half years.9 In view of the enormity of the crimes that Reserve Police Battalion 101 supposedly helped to commit, and of the hysteria that soaks the subject of the so?called Holocaust, few were indicted, fewer still were sentenced. The court, perhaps, was skeptical of the "evidence."

I wrote to Prof. Browning, June 22, and again on October 5, 1992, to ask these questions, among several more. (I have changed the tense from the historic present to the past.)

"(3) Of the Jews whom the Germans shot to death (for Reserve Police Battalion 101 at least 38,000 in number [pp. 142 and 191]), have their corpses been uncovered, counted, identified (in so far as possible), and cause of death determined?

"(A) P. 12, paragraph 2. Police Battalion 309 shot an estimated 2000?2200 Jews at Bialystok, June 27, 1941. The following day the corpses were hauled to a mass grave and buried. Has the grave been looked for? Has it been found?

"(B) Pp. 60, 61, and 191. The Jews, at least 1500 in number, whom 101, July 13, 1942, shot in a forest several kilometers from Jozefow (p. 60, last paragraph), their bodies left unburied (p. 69): anything ever found ... of their remains?

"(C) Pp. 80, 83, 84, and 191. The Jews, at least 1700 in number, whom 101, August 17, 1942, shot in a mass grave in a woods near Lomazy, and covered over: anything found?

"(D) Pp. 98?100. Battalion 101, September 22, 1942, shot 200?300 Jews of Serokomla. who fell into gravel pits, less than one kilometer from the village, and were left uncovered: anything found ... of their remains?

"(E) P. 117. Battalion 101 shot 1100?1600 Jews in a single (unspecified) day of October, 1942, 'in a woods beyond the edge of town [Konskowola]': anything found of their remains?"

I continued with two further questions, which I reproduce in modified form.

(F) Pages 137?141. Battalion 101, November 3, 1943, helped to shoot to death 16,500 to 18,000 Jews, who, assembled at the Majdanek concentration camp, were made to lie in zig?zag trenches. The dead apparently were burned at Majdanek (p. 141, paragraph 2). Why were these Jews not killed in the reputed gas chambers of Majdanek? Encyclopedia of the Holocaust, Vol. 3, page 939, asserts that at Majdanek carbon monoxide and hydrogen cyanide were the two poison gases used.

(G) Pages 139?141. Battalion 101, November 4, 1943 (the day after the alleged preceding event), helped to shoot to death at Poniatowa 14,000 Jews. The corpses were burned out of doors on metal grills and thereafter buried (p. 141, paragraph 3). What has been found of their remains?

My last question read,
"(4) P. 49, paragraph 1. What is your documentary proof or who is your authority for your statement, '... Himmler confided to the SS and Police Leader in Lublin, Odilo Globocnik, Hitler's intention to murder the Jews of Europe as well'? The statement lacks a Footnote."

I ended my two letters, "I shall appreciate your kind reply, Prof. Browning." He never had the kindness to reply.

I enclosed with my second letter to the professor a photocopy of a news story and photograph of skeletal remains, unearthed in 1992 at Caciulati, Romania, of those whom Communist secret police, some four decades earlier, are believed to have murdered?10 It must be stressed that, likewise, the skeletons of those whom the Reserve Police Battalions purportedly killed in the early 1940s will still be there where buried, IF THEY WERE, INDEED, KILLED.

I sought out the indexes for The New York Times, 1945 to the first nine months of 1992. 1 assumed that if any of these reputed mass graves had been uncovered The Times would would have reported the discovery, most eagerly. I searched each volume of the indexes under these nine possible entries: "Bialystok," "Jozefow," "Konskowola," "Lomazy," "Lublin," "Majdanek," "Poniatowa," "Reserve Police Battalion 101," and "Serokomla." I found nothing. The New York Times, to all appearances, has never reported that a mass grave has been found at any of these sites, nor has it ever printed a word about Battalion 101.

I also searched, September 12, 1993, under these same nine entries, the electronic data base InfoTrac (Information Access Company), which indexes some hundreds of periodicals, The New York Times included. Again, nothing found.

The fourteen members of the Battalion who were indicted went on trial in 1967; their appeal was concluded in 1972, over two decades ago. Never in his book does Prof. Browning tell us that a mass grave was searched for or discovered or investigated in the decade, 1962 to 1972, that the reputed events were under official scrutiny and judicial prosecution, or since that decade. In a period of over 30 years apparently not one search was conducted to find something. Never in his book does the professor tell us that even a single skeleton was unearthed and examined. Why not? What is more obvious, what is more essential, than to search there where thousands are supposedly buried? German authorities did not search ?? unlike at Caciulati, where peasants and police sought AND found ?? because they feared that they would not find!

Two of the death tolls that Prof. Browning quotes, those for Majdanek and Poniatowa, are remarkably large. In two days, November 3 and 4, 1943, Battalion 101 supposedly assists at the killing of at least 30,500 Jews. The event presumably occurs in the daylight hours, for we are not told otherwise. At the north latitude of these two towns, which is 51 degrees and 18 minutes, there will be in early November about nine and one?half hours from sunrise to sunset. In altogether nineteen hours, 30,500 Jews are shot to death, one by one by one, thirty thousand five hundred times over. An unlikely tale of itself, but patently absurd when we remember that the purported event of November 3 occurred at Majdanek, where the apostles of the so?called Holocaust insist that there were gas chambers. How absurd to shoot to death what gas chambers were built to kill ? The story is a clumsy admission, which escaped Prof. Browning's notice, that there were no gas chambers at Majdanek.

He tabulates on page 17 the death tolls as supposedly reported over a period of 48 days by German police stationed in Russia. The archive at Yad Vashem, Jerusalem, holds these reports,11 some tolls of which are curiously and suspiciously repetitious. Police Regiment South, August 27, 1941, shoots 549 Jews; Battalion 314 of that same regiment shoots that same day 69 Jews; Police Regiment South the next day shoots 369 Jews. The same regiment on September 4 shoots 4,144 Jews, the next day 144 Jews. The numbers are fictitious. The reports themselves may be spurious.

Aside from Prof. Browning's very questionable text, founded on a very suspect source, a further defect, very serious for the author in its implications, also vitiates the book. On eight unnumbered pages, bound between pages 40 and 41, are ten purported photographs. The provenances of these illustrations are Yad Vashem (Nos. 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, and 10) and Jewish Historical Institute of Warsaw (Nos. 3, 5, 6, and 9). At least four of the ten are fraudulent. I assume that all ten are. We shall analyze Nos. 1, 2,~ 5, and 6. "Photographs" 1 and 2 are respectively the upper and lower illustrations on the first of the unnumbered pages. (Part of "photograph" 1 is the illustration on the dust cover.) "Photographs" 5 and 6 are respectively the upper and lower illustrations on the fourth unnumbered page.

fge

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Reserve police battalion 101

Postby grenadier » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:50 pm)

Greetings Hannover.

In regard to the specifics, I´m afraid my answer would have to be; I took Mr.Browning´s word for it. That is, he tells us he reconstructed the actions of that "killing unit" from the interrogations of the units members.
I dont know what they confessed to exactly.
However according to the book many policemen confessed to the jozefow massacre. Some of the testimonies even recalled Trapp´s offer that the older men who didnt feel up to the task could step out.
I cant see why Browning should lie about this because he could easily be exposed. On the other hand I, as a layperson, have no way of knowing if what he wrote is correct. But have any serious revisionist historians disputed his writings? I searched the sites and could not find a thing.
As for the charts David talked about they were taken according to Browning from the reports of Friedrich Jeckeln, who commanded several police battalions in Russia. Again, i have no idea if the reports are accurate.
Now, please bear with me. Dont you think the stuff from Browning´s book and "masters of death" is very serious and perhaps in a sense much more damaging for wwII Germany than the gas chambers? In the gas chamber story the personnel involved was minimum. On the other hand if the order police took part in the many jewish actions with the participation of so many battalions, several thousand men must have been involved. It gets dangerously close to the crazy ideas of a Goldhagen type.

Best regards

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Oct 02, 2004 1:37 am)

grenadier:

Don't take this personally but ...

Why take Browning's word for it? Browning has in fact been 'easily exposed', read the mentioned points.

I gave a link to a thread with various points by myself and others, and info. from Brian Renk which shows Browning is indeed a liar, why ignore it?

Sailor has shown you questions he put to Browning, why ignore them? Sailor has damning information about the actual 'sources' of what are certainly fraudulent creations, typical for the 'holocaust' story.

Without specifics of these alleged 'confessions' there is nothing to talk about except claims by discredited Zionist Browning.

And remember, the alleged huge mass graves are nowhere to be found.
It's really very simple.

Regards, Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:13 pm)

Greetings.

Why take Browning's word for it? Browning has in fact been 'easily exposed', read the mentioned points.


You could be right, maybe 'taking prof.Browning´s word for it' is naive of me. I think we tend to believe that when an important historian writes a book he´s beign honest and thourough.
I´ve always read a whole lot more about wwII military aspects than about the holocaust. In the process i´ve discovered that a lot of famous "historians" out there are nothing but phonies. For example, Mr.Keegan tells us in his book "six armies in Normandy" the germans lost almost 250,000 men killed in Normandy. That´s total nonsense! In reality about 23,000 got killed during the summer for the ENTIRE WESTERN FRONT. Losses for Normandy were smaller. From this flawed data the famous mr.Keegan proceeds with the most absurd conclusions which render his book useless.

As for the thread you pointed out to me I didn´t ignore its content. I thank you and Sailor for your input.

And remember, the alleged huge mass graves are nowhere to be found.
It's really very simple.


Ok, establishment historians and the authorities never searched for the mass graves but why haven´t the revisionist historians done so?? The places where the corpses were buried are often known. This would be a great way to determine what happened and what didn´t happen! Do you know if somebody wanted to try it but got stopped by governments or something?

Sailor mentions the alleged german police reports from Russia. Has the source for the reports been established? Were they produced by the soviets, the americans..?

How do you guys feel about material produced by the americans? If i remember correctly some of the Einsatzgruppen event reports were found by american paratroops. Are they more credible?

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Oct 02, 2004 5:33 pm)

On page 19 of "ordinary men" there is an alleged report from the head of the german civil administration at Slutsk(a certain Carl) to his boss, Wilhelm kube, in Minsk. In it there is a description of how 2 companies of german police and 2 of lithuanian auxiliaries carried out a massacre in this town even against Carl´s wishes.
Any thoughts on this report?

regards

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Oct 02, 2004 10:34 pm)

grenadier:

The onus is upon the accusers to provide evidence for their alleged mass graves, why haven't they?

You should also see posts here on Babi Yar, an alleged mass shooting site (supposedly 34,000) which has been thoroughly debunked by Revisionists.

I should also remind you that Revisionist Krege has done Ground Penetrating Radar scans of Treblinka, where an alleged pit supposedly held 900,000 Jews. Guess what .... it's not there. See posts here on that as well.

On page 19 of "ordinary men" there is an alleged report from the head of the german civil administration at Slutsk(a certain Carl) to his boss, Wilhelm kube, in Minsk. In it there is a description of how 2 companies of german police and 2 of lithuanian auxiliaries carried out a massacre in this town even against Carl´s wishes.
Any thoughts on this report?

Do we have the original German document to see, or is it just a fraudulent rendering? As in: 'a photocopy of an English translation of a Polish translation of a copy of a Russian translation of a photocopy of an alleged German orignal which is nowhere to be found' ... just like Nuremberg 'documents'.

Are they really describing combat against illegal non-uniformed combatant 'partisans' .... called 'terrorists' today?

Are they really describing executions of saboteurs and criminal Communists who engaged in wanton killing of Christians and anti-Communists?

Why should we believe it?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby J William » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Oct 03, 2004 9:16 am)

A interesting statement by Jan Karski during an interview sheds some light on membership of Jews in Resistance groups(today called terrorists) and fits in with the purpose of Police detachments working behind the front.
quote
"3. David S. Wyman in his book, Abandonment of the Jews, felt that the U. S. should have bombed Auschwitz. Why do you think they didn't?

I knew that the Jews in Poland had their own underground that was divided between socialists and Zionists. Thousands upon thousands of Jews were in the underground. In Poland, Hungary, Holland, France, Greece Jews were engaging in underground activities -- not as Jews. My direct superior was a man of Jewish descent, but he didn't tell me because it would jeopardize, it would be a double danger, one because he was part of the underground and two, because it meant execution.

The world did not know, it didn't know, it didn't know about my superior, he didn't look Semitic. I sent various messages to the allies. I was not the only courier. The American Jewish Congress had their own agents, a man named Easterman who was a liaison with Dr. Riegner in Switzerland. I was not the only one. They were sending reports.

I didn't carry any messages about the bombing of Auschwitz. But I was at one of the conferences with intelligence officers, secret agents discussing psychological warfare, I had several meetings and they spoke with me frankly. At one meeting, they engaged in animated discussion between themselves about bombing the railroad -- "those Jews in Poland are crazy; don't know what they are talking about, stupid -- bomb a narrow railroad, the planes would have to fly low, they would have many losses, the precision of thebombs is not good, for narrow railroads, would have to drop ten times as many bombs. And where will the bombs fall? They will fall on Polish peasants. And what will be the reaction of the Poles to the bombing without any reason?" To destroy from the air railroads would be very costly. And the Germans having slave labor to repair the railroads, they can do it in no time."

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Oct 04, 2004 2:18 pm)

Hannover wrote:
The onus is upon the accusers to provide evidence for their alleged mass graves, why haven't they?


I must disagree. You would be correct if we were talking about a trial in a court of law. But we aren´t. No, in this case the onus is upon the revisionist. Why?

1- How many people know holocaust revisionism exists? Not many i´d say.

2- Of those who have heard about it, how many consider it credible? Few. Most researchers associated with it are reviled in the media, presented as a bunch of crack-pots, racist right wingers, anti-semitic and the like.

So does it matter if you are convinced it´s all BS? That I have serious doubts about the whole story? We´re a tiny minority. There´s only one Holocaust story, the official one.

To make a difference I think the few revisionist researchers will have to work harder than the dozens of well paid historians that support the Holocaust.

A great way would be to pay a visit to some of the sites where the alleged mass graves are supposed to be.
Of course if they did it at Kiev the exterminationists might claim the bodies had been destroyed by Bloblel and his crew(though i dont believe that could be done).
However even they dont claim the germans dug up and destroyed all the corpses. If memory serves me right the victims of the Josefow massacre(battalion 101) were just buried at the outskirts of the village and never touched again.

I should also remind you that Revisionist Krege has done Ground Penetrating Radar scans of Treblinka, where an alleged pit supposedly held 900,000 Jews. Guess what .... it's not there.


Yes i know and that´s great. They should do more of that! Do you know what were the repercussions of his finds? How did the exterminationists, the media react to that??

cheers

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:27 pm)

How many people know holocaust revisionism exists? Not many i´d say.

I disagree, most folks know about Revisionism .... albeit, through the judeo-supremacist media's distorted lens.

Revisionists have been to many sites:
see: the Leuchter Report, The Rudolf Report, Krege's work, David Cole's work.
But they must do it when authorities are unaware because they will not permit Revisionists to examine the sites. Even Cole had to sneak around the other camps; besides his Piper interview at Auschwitz. And David Irving took a BBC crew to Auschwitz and they were prevented from entering.

There's a reason for all of that ofcourse, the 'holocau$t' Industry knows it has nothing and wants to stop Revisionists from exposing the lies.

Sorry, but there is a 'trial', truth is on trial and the Believers cannot produce evidence to sustain their bizarre claims. They could stop Revisionism in a heartbeat if they could: but alas, they have nothing.

No massgraves as alleged, then no 'holocaust' as alleged.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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