: [...] I am trying to understand this. Specialists on the Einsatzgruppen such as Krausnick/Wilhelm rely mostly on Ereignismeldungen UdSSR (Event Reports USSR).
These contain the event reports USSR(Ereignismeldungen UdSSR...), Tätigkeits- und Lageberichte( activity and situation reports..) and the Meldungen aus den besetzten Ostgebieten vom Chef der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD-Kommandostab". Now, what I am trying to find out is: Do the wartime Einsatzgruppen documents exist in the archives, or just negative photostats? I am trying to determine if these historians have used only these photocopies, or if they've used the originals. This seems very odd. Why do you think the originals from which the photocopies derived have vanished? (if that is the case).
[...] C. W. PORTER
: I'm not entirely clear as to the difference between the Einsatzgruppen reports and the Ereignismeldungen UdSSR (Event Reports USSR), event reports USSR, and (Ereignismeldungen UdSSR...), and the Tätigkeits- und Lageberichte.
I am quite certain that what I say is true because these facts -- particularly the disappearance of the original documents -- have been remarked upon by many people, revisionists and non-revisionists alike, including Pressac and Hilberg. There are no signatures, no letterheads, no originals and no sharp S. The original DID SIX MILLION REALLY DIE? written 30 years ago, remarks on all these points, except the sharp S. As I say, there must be authentic Einsatzgruppen reports, but nobody seems to know where they are.
There are no originals of any Nuremberg trial documents, except for a few, more or less insignificant documents. Even the "file copies" are photocopies. Many people have remarked that nobody knows where these documents are. Have a look at my articles on Jean-Clause Pressac (http://www.cwporter.com/undocs.htm
): and these aren't even Nuremberg Trial documents. What line of argument other people use, I don't know. Faurisson and Mattogno probably know the most about these documents. There appear to be many original archive documents (hundreds of thousands of them), but they were not introduced into evidence at the trials. In other words, the rule seems to be: if it is an original, it is not incriminating.
Faurisson and Mattogno has seen these documents, but they certainly don't prove the existence of any gas chambers. Dog kennels, potato warehouses, horse stables, carpentry shops, ironworking shops, etc., etc. yes.
I suspect that the original Nuremberg Trial documents have vanished because the documents were mostly forgeries to start with, but they may have vanished for some other reason.
To me, engaging in complicated arguments about the "content" of apocryphal documents is putting the cart before the horse. To me, the first question is, is it an original? What kind of document is it? Where did the copy come from? What kind of copy is it? And so on. Then we'll argue about what they say. There are no originals, as a rule, especially, no Nuremberg Trial originals, or very few. And no rules of evidence, no chain of evidence. No requirement that original documents be presented.
Very few people visit the archives. They write for photocopies. If the photocopy is a positive, they don't know whether the original is there, or not. But most of them are negatives.
: Pretty good articles by the way. Revisionists should try to further dissect these Nuremberg documents and trials in detail. G. Rudolf was planning a book on those lines but unfortunately he has been put away.
Do you have any familiarity with document NO-1128? It is a document allegedly from Himmler to Hitler, reporting among other things the execution of more than 360.000 jews in only 4 months! You can see a reproduction of it at Irvings' website
A reader asks on the above webpage if Mr. Irving has seen the document, meaning I suppose, the original document. Unfortunately Mr. Irving, while stating he thinks the document is authentic, doesn't reply in regards to whether
he ever saw the original of it. He indicates the original should be now in file NS19/291, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.C.W. PORTER
: It is interesting to note Mr. Irving's exact words:
"As stated in David Irving's biography Hitler's War, the original of the laconic report by Himmler that 363,211 Russian Jews had been executed will be found on US National Archives microfilm T175/124. The original is now in file NS19/291, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz
When Mr. Irving states that the "original" will be found on "microfilm", it becomes obvious that he simply does not understand what is meant by the word "original". Since the Bundesarchiv Koblenz has no
original Nuremberg Trial documents (they told me so themselves), I doubt that the original is there, either. I think the document is ridiculous and the more I see of Irving the less I think he can be trusted. READER
: The only revisionist I have seen making any comments in regards to NO-1128 is Mr. Butz in his "Hoax", but only very briefly. He says Himmlers' signature is on an irrelevant p.1 while the execution claim is on p.4. That however seems wrong because the number -2- at the lower right hand, indicates the next page, does it not? Therefore the execution numbers would be on the first page (which by the way is strange, don't you think?). Butz's note indicates NMT, vol 13, 269-272 (excerpts only). Would that be a facsimile?
While Himmlers' signature indeed appears only on a different page, there seems to be a handwritten signature of a "Werner Grothmann", Himmler's adjutant at the lower right hand of the page detailing the executions.
You know, one thing I find very strange about this document and the Einsatzgruppen reports in general, is that one cannot see any "Top Secret" stamps or something of the sort. That seems very weird to me. Plus, as others have mentioned, this No-1128 is supposedly a document that discusses the "Partisanenkrieg" (guerrilla warfare). Why then, mix up Jewish executions in it? The insurgency problem in the USSR was already very serious at the end of 1942, and a report about it to Hitler should have been objective and thorough. I don't know, it just seems strange in the things it reports.C.W. PORTER
: As I told you before, the Bundesarchiv Koblenz has NO ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS (at least none for the Nuremberg Trials). They told me so themselves. Why don't you write and ask them? You are right that the -2- should refer to the next page, I hadn't thought of that. The NMT documents reproduced in book form are TYPESET, without even any description of the documents (photocopy, mimeograph, certified true copy, original, etc.) or even any indication of WHETHER THEY WERE SIGNED OR NOT. In other words, the NMT volumes are almost completely worthless. They do not even contain the full transcript: for example, you get a whole series of questions asked by the prosecutor, to which the defendant or witness's answers have simply been deleted! There is no pretense that the witness remained silent; only the questions are considered worthy of interest.
The liquidation of partisans should probably refer to liquidation of partisans, not Jews, although of course the contrary case is quite possible, if the Germans felt that nearly ALL Jews were partisans, which I think would be going too far. One of the Nuremberg defendants, I think it was von Manstein, said there were next to NO JEWS among the partisans. That is probably going too far. In France, the Jews formed 15% of the partisans but were only 1% of the population.
...I think the document has been retyped simply changing the figures; 360,000 is a ridiculous number. Who the hell is going to fill in all those holes? The original could have read 3,000, so a team of Soviet forgers retypes the thing, transfers the signature by photographic means, or by hand (the Soviets had whole government departments that did nothing but forge passports and other documents for about 70 years), and presto!
It's absurd that anything incriminating would not bear a SECRET stamp. Either the document was not considered incriminating, or it is a fake. Of course the shooting of 3,000 partisans would not be considered incriminating.
It is very easy to alter an existing document but fairly difficult to fake an original out of whole cloth, i.e., without a model to copy. As I say, the Bundesarchiv Koblenz is busy microfilming all their documents, so the whole infinite regress of disappearing originals will now be placed one step further backwards. There must be Black Hole in the Universe filled with these things.
...I don't think that that is the first page of the document. It is obviously the second page. Yet the -2-, as you say, would normally refer to the following page, i.e, this should be the first page; but it seems strange. More riddles. Anyway, the figures are absurd. It's like all these documents saying the Germans cremated 10,000 or 20,000 bodies a day, or something. The document has to be forged, because what it describes is impossible.
Maybe somebody found a document that looked just like that, but said "Juden evakuiert". They retype it, substituting "Juden executiert", and voilà.
I think this is the way most of the Nuremberg documents were produced: by altering a single word or inserting a paragraph or page or occasionally an entire text, retaining the headings, if any. Faking an entire document is far from easy, but alteration is child's play; note the second paragraph above. That way, if necessary, you have the references, everything, so it fits into an entire file of authentic documents, if necessary, and may never be noticed, especially if the originals are never examined. As I have said, I consider the Himmler secret speech an altered speech on the military situation. That's just one example.
Most forgeries require a model of some sort. For example, the Kujau "Hitler diaries" were faked by copying the Hitler Table Talk, or something similar; it was the text (and the album covers) that gave him away. The handwriting was perfect (copied from Werner Maser's HITLERS BRIEFE UND NOTIZEN, published in 1973). If you look at http://www.crimelibrary.com
there is a whole section on famous forgers, and you will see that very few of them produce original texts out of whole cloth; only signatures, which are often sold to private collectors and are never discovered. Almost the only successful exception was a Mormon who faked an original Emily Dickinson poem which was still being sold as authentic, certified by literary experts and handwriting experts, even after the guy had been in prison for almost 30 years. But that is very rare, in fact unique. A lot of people can fake a signature by Abraham Lincoln, for example, but when they try to fake a sentence or paragraph by him, they fail miserably, and get caught, because Lincoln's style in English is almost impossible to imitate. http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi