'Massacres' in the Soviet Union

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'Massacres' in the Soviet Union

Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Feb 08, 2003 4:46 pm)

Hebden wrote:And the shooting of hundreds of thousands of people into pits in the Soviet Union? We suggest you deal with our point about the police decodes which apparently document thousands of such deaths. Be so kind to give us your opinion on these.



Specifically where in the Soviet Union where people shot by the hundreds of thousands into pits? How many? Where? When? On what evidence? What Police decodes? Who wrote these messages? When? How? Who did the decoding?
Please?

:D

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Feb 08, 2003 4:56 pm)

Shouldn't the topic be 'SUPPOSED/ALLEGED massacres'?

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Re: Massacres in the Soviet Union

Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Feb 08, 2003 6:05 pm)

Sailor wrote: What Police decodes? Who wrote these messages? When? How? Who did the decoding?
Please?
:D


Did you miss our earlier post in another thread?

We would be interested in hearing what you make of this account of the alleged massacres at Kamenets-Podolsk from the book by Mr. Breitman (see pp. 63-65). Do you have a problem with the authenticity of the police decodes as well?


An action against Hungarian Jews deported to the Ukraine dwarfed all previous killings in the South. Responding to initiatives from its Central Alien Control Office, the Hungarian government, in late June, had decided to rid the country of many of the Jewish refugees who had flocked there since 1938. Alien Jews were rounded up, crammed into freight cars, transferred across the border into the Ukraine, and marched to Kamenets-Podolsk, along the Dnieper River. Unprepared German authorities feared that these Jews would threaten their lines of communication, but Hungarian authorities had no interest in taking them back. On August 25, various German civil and military officials met at Vinnitsa, in the Ukraine, to deal with issues surrounding the impending transfer of authority from the military to a civilian administration (scheduled for September 1). During that meeting, a representative announced that Jeckeln hoped to complete the liquidation of eleven thousand Hungarian Jews by September 1.

Mass executions at Kamenets-Podolsk occurred over several days. The victims were forced to march into an area pocked with bomb craters and then to undress. A cross fire of machine guns brought them down; some were buried alive. Until recently, the best available information was that the executioners were units of the SS, Ukrainian auxiliaries, and a Hungarian sappers platoon. At the beginning of the events, Jeckeln listed the participating units and described their tasks: his staff company did the shooting, and Police Battalion 320 cordoned off the area. A related transmission revealed that the same two forces shot another forty-two hundred Jews two days later. Then his staff company claimed eleven thousand Jews. Another transmission near the end of the action indicated that Police Battalion 320 itself killed another twenty-two hundred Jews at Minkowy, just northeast of Kamenets-Podolsk.

After two days Jeckeln proudly reported that the grand total of Jews liquidated at Kamenets-Podolsk was about 20,000. The Einsatzgruppen report of September 11, couriered back to Berlin, contained updated information – the overall total of 23,6000, the fact that Jeckeln was in charge, and that “his commando unit” carried out the action – but less detail about the participants.

The victims included fourteen thousand to sixteen thousand Hungarian Jews; the remainder were Ukrainian Jews rounded up from nearby towns and villages. About two thousand of the deported Hungarian Jews escaped and survived. After initially withdrawing to quarters in nearby Proskurov, Police Battalion 320 sent patrols back to Kamenets-Podolsk to look for those who escaped and to deal with plundering by Ukrainians. Through the end of August 1941, Kamenets-Podolsk represented the largest single Nazi liquidation of Jews. (It was soon eclipsed by Babi Yar, outside Kiev, at the end of September.) It was not the work of the notorious Einsatzgruppen but the product of Jeckeln’s leadership and the efforts of his staff company and Order Policemen.


Have you seen the recent speech given by Mr. Jurgen Graf in Estonia? Here's part of what he said:

As mentioned already, it is [not] out of the question that German troops shot many Jews on the Eastern Front. The main reason is that Jews formed a disproportionately high number as partisans and were collectively considered pro-Bolshevik.
In official historiography, the number of Jews killed in the East is given as up to one a half million, the greatest part of the victims were supposed to have been killed by special deployment troops. So far, revisionists have dealt with this topic relatively little, although the historian Udo Walendy, who was imprisoned for two years in Germany - had already in the early 1980s objected to the official count of victims. A comprehensive investigation about the question of special forces and executions on the Eastern Front is presently being prepared, but it will probably take years until its publication.


http://www.russgranata.com

It's not very encouraging, is it? One can't sell Revisionism on future promises.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Feb 08, 2003 6:51 pm)

All Hebden does is quote Breitman with no verification of the assertions made by Breitman. Hebden seems to think that an assertion is somehow evidence, that a claimed "decode" is real and factual. I notice Hebden does not answer Sailor's question:
Who did the "decoding"?

The authenticity and credibility of these unverifiable "decodes" is nowhere to be found, much less physical evidence. "Decodes" such as this howl of fraud.

The assertion 23, 600 were killed in one site, witnessed, but no site is ever found is ludicrous.
Just saying Jackeln said something doesn't mean that he did. We could cite statements by alleged UFO/alien abductess too, so what?

AND the claim is that sites like this exist all over Eastern Europe, but again, they are nowhere to be found. Let's have a reality check here.

Then we see Hebden quoting Graf.
Well, so what? Contained in that quote is the fact that executions of "partisans" (today called terrorists) happened..big deal. Perfectly legal under international law (non-uniformed combatants), and common in all wars by all sides. Jews were dominate in these illegal terrorist groups, that is generally acknowledged. Why they didn't join the Red army is something to think about.
Also in the quote from Graf is the fact that these numbers are considered to be highly inflated by "official" sources. So it would appear Hebden shot himself in the foot with this.

And then the obvious question is why the 'holocau$t Industry hasn't proved these assertions of "shooting of hundreds of thousands of people into pits in the Soviet Union" in the first place. They make the claims, they are the accuser, it is their responsibility to prove their claims. The fact that they cannot is revealing.

The future of the scam is doomed.

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Last edited by Hannover on Sat Feb 08, 2003 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Feb 08, 2003 7:19 pm)

Hannover wrote:
The authenticity and credibility of these unverifiable "decodes" is nowhere to be found, much less physical evidence. "Decodes" such as this howl of fraud.


We wonder if you raised a similar objection when these same police decodes failed to provide any support whatsoever for the existence of mass gassings in Auschwitz?

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Postby widukind » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Feb 08, 2003 8:44 pm)

I think Graf is refering here to the piece of information that appeared in VffG 2002/3:

Sodann ist es mir gelungen, 17.000 Dokumente über die Tätigkeit der Einsatzgruppen aufzutreiben. Es handelt sich dabei um Berichte der Einsatzgruppen selbst, nicht um irgendwelche Kompilationen irgendwelcher angeblicher Bürokraten in Berlin, die man uns heute als der Weisheit letzten Schluß unter dem Titel "Ereignismeldungen" andrehen will. Dieser nun vor mir liegende riesige Aktenberg wurde von den Soldaten und Polizisten hinter der Front selbst erstellt. Da liegt so mancher Goldschatz verborgen, und es mag durchaus sein, daß nach der Auswertung dieser Akten ein neues Standardwerk über die Einsatzgruppen das Licht der Welt erblicken wird, vor dem das Buch Krausnicks und Wilhelms Die Truppe des Weltanschauungskrieges verblassen wird. Aber bis dahin liegt noch ein gigantischer Berg Arbeit vor uns.


Freely translated :

I've managed to get hold of 17000 documents on the activities of the Einsatzgruppen. These are reports by the Einsatzgruppen themselves, not just some compilations by any alleged bureaucrats in Berlin, that are fed to us as the height of wisdom under the title of "reports of events" (Ereignismeldungen). This huge mountain of documents now before me was written by the soldiers and policemen behind the frontlines. Therein is hidden many a gold nugget and it well may be that after the evaluation of these documents a new standard work on the Einsatzgruppen will see the light of day, forcing Krausnick's and Wilhelm's book "Die Truppe des Weltanschauungskrieges" to pale in comparison. But until then still lies a gigantic pile of work ahead.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Feb 08, 2003 8:48 pm)

Hebden said:
We wonder if you raised a similar objection when these same police decodes failed to provide any support whatsoever for the existence of mass gassings in Auschwitz?


No objection whatsoever. In this case the facts on the ground at Auschwitz confirm what those decodes never mention. The facts on the ground show no evidence of there ever being any gassings at Auschwitz/Birkenau. The decodes never mention gassings.
However, an alleged "decode" (and "alleged" is important here) that is supposed to say that 23,600 Jews were shot into a pit, but the pit is nowhere to found, even though it's location is supposedly known, is a fraudulent "decode".

"Decodes" aside for the moment, let's recall your statement which is: "shooting of hundreds of thousands of people into pits in the Soviet Union".
That means that there should be scores of sites, said to be "witnessed", which would necessarily yield a veritable sea of human remains, spent ammo, huge pits, etc. Instead we have absolutely nothing...nothing.

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Postby elbod » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Feb 08, 2003 11:09 pm)

http://130.149.134.79/journal/kkwiet001.htm

Concerned about the warnings of German signals and intelligence experts that the simple, hand set code used for German Police wireless telegraphic transmission could easily be broken by the enemy, Kurt Daluege instructed the SS and Police commanders on 13 September 1941 not to include information into radio messages classified as "geheime Reichssache" - "Top secret". The murder of the Jews fell into this category. Henceforth reports of liquidations had to be submitted via special courier services. This directive, too, can be found amongst the British decodes.


Later, from the same link:

More reports were to follow. Despite the ban imposed SS and Police commanders continued to use radio transmissions as their means to convey the sites and scale of mass murder. Repeatedly the British were informed about "Aktionen nach Kriegsgebrauch", actions taken in accordance to the rules of war, a cynical term used to disguise the Judenaktionen. Occasionally even the term Judenaktion was used or Judenfamilien, Jewish families hiding in forests.


The Germans seem to have used a "simple hand set code" combined with their "Tarnsprache", i.e., euphemisms after the directive of Daluge of 13 September 1941.

This must mean that the police codes after this date must be decoded twice - firstly, by breaking the police code, and secondly, by decoding the Tarnsprache.

Can we read such a difference, if we want to?

Or do we have to take the "decoders" on trust?

Here are the next two paragraphs from the link:

The "Ultra" system provided a plethora of information covering almost all fronts. These included not only the military data of the German war machinery and the diplomatic communication of Germany's Foreign Office but also the information in relation to economic, social and cultural matters. It would appear that they were also decrypts about Dachau, Buchenwald, Auschwitz and a few other concentration camps. They made reference to prisoner categories, forced labour as well as to deaths resulting from starvation and disease, hanging and shooting.

The transcripts declassified represent only the tip of the iceberg. Security files suggest that the West obtained much more detailed information about the Holocaust than previously assumed. A vast amount of records has still to be released, in particular in England. More research needs to be done on establishing the extent of the West's knowledge of and attitude towards the "Final Solution". Only then can we gain a greater understanding of the various forces which determined the code of continued silence.


"...the code of continued silence"...!!

Is that why we never hear anything about the Holocaust?

Or why the police must take care of those that wish to decode the decoders?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Feb 09, 2003 12:37 am)

Good post from elbod.

Now this is a real beauty.
Kurt Daluege instructed the SS and Police commanders on 13 September 1941 not to include information into radio messages classified as "geheime Reichssache" - "Top secret". The murder of the Jews fell into this category. Henceforth reports of liquidations had to be submitted via special courier services. This directive, too, can be found amongst the British decodes.


This guy says that murdering Jews fell into this "top secret" category, but offers no proof of such, offers no proof of the murders he alleges. The directive undoubtedly says no "top secret" messages, but nowhere does it say that it includes alleged murders of Jews. Absurd and dishonest, but yet HE knows.

Then, he says 'despite the ban the SS men violated orders'??? Sure, like in wartime servicemen go around violating strict orders and send messages at their leisure, how they want...in the SS yet. Right.

Then this character says with no basis whatsoever:
"Aktionen nach Kriegsgebrauch", actions taken in accordance to the rules of war, a cynical term used to disguise the Judenaktionen. Occasionally even the term Judenaktion was used or Judenfamilien, Jewish families hiding in forests.


As elbod says, we now have this man claiming to know that the Germans didn't really mean what they said, and only Believers can really determine the meaning.

He then says:
It would appear that they were also decrypts about Dachau, Buchenwald, Auschwitz and a few other concentration camps. They made reference to prisoner categories, forced labour as well as to deaths resulting from starvation and disease, hanging and shooting.


He dodges the fact that 'gassings' are never mentioned, as there were none.

He mentions starvation, so? Towards the end of the war starvation was a real concern for everyone.

Disease? Yes we know that. Hence Zyklon-B.

Shootings? Well, a war was on and I would expect actions against saboteurs and common crimnals, nothing there. The Allies did the same.

Prisoner categories? Yes we know... like in all POW camps, work camps, and prisons. Means nothing.

Forced labor, yes those in camps usually were asked to work for their keep...as were prisoners everywhere.

What we have here is much ado about nothing. This nutbar simply see things which never existed and seems to have a vested interest in leveling false accusations and then implying the "west" is responsible. Such is the 'holocau$t' Industry.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Feb 09, 2003 5:42 am)

elbod wrote:http://130.149.134.79/journal/kkwiet001.htm

Concerned about the warnings of German signals and intelligence experts that the simple, hand set code used for German Police wireless telegraphic transmission could easily be broken by the enemy, Kurt Daluege instructed the SS and Police commanders on 13 September 1941 not to include information into radio messages classified as "geheime Reichssache" - "Top secret". The murder of the Jews fell into this category. Henceforth reports of liquidations had to be submitted via special courier services. This directive, too, can be found amongst the British decodes.


It is of course for reasons of secrecy that exterminationists claim the Auschwitz decodes make no reference to gassings.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Feb 09, 2003 6:23 am)

Hebden says:
It is of course for reasons of secrecy that exterminationists claim the Auschwitz decodes make no reference to gassings.


But that ignores the text posted by elbod that 'shooting thousands of Jews in one place' was included in these so called "decodes", against alleged orders of the SS for secrecy.
What we have here is most peculiar; the SS forces were then supposed to be deliberately violating orders of secrecy about "mass shootings in pits" & "starvation" of Jews, but according to Hebden, adhered to orders of secrecy for the alleged 'gas chambers'. Well, it's laughable to say the least and has strained credulity past the breaking point.
And it dodges the facts on the ground at Auschwitz that clearly indicated then, as it does now, there were no gassings.

However, what's also no longer a secret is the fact that the alleged massive pits do not exist, and Believers, regardless of their frustration, are unable to produce them.

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Re: Massacres in the Soviet Union

Postby Hannover » 5 years 3 months ago (Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:29 pm)

This is linked to Hebden's responses in this thread:
Letter of Himmler to Müller 20 November 1942

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Re: Massacres in the Soviet Union

Postby hermod » 5 years 3 months ago (Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:35 pm)

READER: [...] I am trying to understand this. Specialists on the Einsatzgruppen such as Krausnick/Wilhelm rely mostly on Ereignismeldungen UdSSR (Event Reports USSR).

These contain the event reports USSR(Ereignismeldungen UdSSR...), Tätigkeits- und Lageberichte( activity and situation reports..) and the Meldungen aus den besetzten Ostgebieten vom Chef der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD-Kommandostab". Now, what I am trying to find out is: Do the wartime Einsatzgruppen documents exist in the archives, or just negative photostats? I am trying to determine if these historians have used only these photocopies, or if they've used the originals. This seems very odd. Why do you think the originals from which the photocopies derived have vanished? (if that is the case).

[...]

C. W. PORTER: I'm not entirely clear as to the difference between the Einsatzgruppen reports and the Ereignismeldungen UdSSR (Event Reports USSR), event reports USSR, and (Ereignismeldungen UdSSR...), and the Tätigkeits- und Lageberichte.

I am quite certain that what I say is true because these facts -- particularly the disappearance of the original documents -- have been remarked upon by many people, revisionists and non-revisionists alike, including Pressac and Hilberg. There are no signatures, no letterheads, no originals and no sharp S. The original DID SIX MILLION REALLY DIE? written 30 years ago, remarks on all these points, except the sharp S. As I say, there must be authentic Einsatzgruppen reports, but nobody seems to know where they are.

There are no originals of any Nuremberg trial documents, except for a few, more or less insignificant documents. Even the "file copies" are photocopies. Many people have remarked that nobody knows where these documents are. Have a look at my articles on Jean-Clause Pressac (http://www.cwporter.com/undocs.htm): and these aren't even Nuremberg Trial documents. What line of argument other people use, I don't know. Faurisson and Mattogno probably know the most about these documents. There appear to be many original archive documents (hundreds of thousands of them), but they were not introduced into evidence at the trials. In other words, the rule seems to be: if it is an original, it is not incriminating.

Faurisson and Mattogno has seen these documents, but they certainly don't prove the existence of any gas chambers. Dog kennels, potato warehouses, horse stables, carpentry shops, ironworking shops, etc., etc. yes.

I suspect that the original Nuremberg Trial documents have vanished because the documents were mostly forgeries to start with, but they may have vanished for some other reason.

To me, engaging in complicated arguments about the "content" of apocryphal documents is putting the cart before the horse. To me, the first question is, is it an original? What kind of document is it? Where did the copy come from? What kind of copy is it? And so on. Then we'll argue about what they say. There are no originals, as a rule, especially, no Nuremberg Trial originals, or very few. And no rules of evidence, no chain of evidence. No requirement that original documents be presented.

Very few people visit the archives. They write for photocopies. If the photocopy is a positive, they don't know whether the original is there, or not. But most of them are negatives.

[...]

READER: Pretty good articles by the way. Revisionists should try to further dissect these Nuremberg documents and trials in detail. G. Rudolf was planning a book on those lines but unfortunately he has been put away.
Do you have any familiarity with document NO-1128? It is a document allegedly from Himmler to Hitler, reporting among other things the execution of more than 360.000 jews in only 4 months! You can see a reproduction of it at Irvings' website
here: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Meldung291242.html

A reader asks on the above webpage if Mr. Irving has seen the document, meaning I suppose, the original document. Unfortunately Mr. Irving, while stating he thinks the document is authentic, doesn't reply in regards to whether
he ever saw the original of it. He indicates the original should be now in file NS19/291, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.

C.W. PORTER: It is interesting to note Mr. Irving's exact words:

"As stated in David Irving's biography Hitler's War, the original of the laconic report by Himmler that 363,211 Russian Jews had been executed will be found on US National Archives microfilm T175/124. The original is now in file NS19/291, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz."

When Mr. Irving states that the "original" will be found on "microfilm", it becomes obvious that he simply does not understand what is meant by the word "original". Since the Bundesarchiv Koblenz has no original Nuremberg Trial documents (they told me so themselves), I doubt that the original is there, either. I think the document is ridiculous and the more I see of Irving the less I think he can be trusted.

READER: The only revisionist I have seen making any comments in regards to NO-1128 is Mr. Butz in his "Hoax", but only very briefly. He says Himmlers' signature is on an irrelevant p.1 while the execution claim is on p.4. That however seems wrong because the number -2- at the lower right hand, indicates the next page, does it not? Therefore the execution numbers would be on the first page (which by the way is strange, don't you think?). Butz's note indicates NMT, vol 13, 269-272 (excerpts only). Would that be a facsimile?

While Himmlers' signature indeed appears only on a different page, there seems to be a handwritten signature of a "Werner Grothmann", Himmler's adjutant at the lower right hand of the page detailing the executions.

You know, one thing I find very strange about this document and the Einsatzgruppen reports in general, is that one cannot see any "Top Secret" stamps or something of the sort. That seems very weird to me. Plus, as others have mentioned, this No-1128 is supposedly a document that discusses the "Partisanenkrieg" (guerrilla warfare). Why then, mix up Jewish executions in it? The insurgency problem in the USSR was already very serious at the end of 1942, and a report about it to Hitler should have been objective and thorough. I don't know, it just seems strange in the things it reports.

C.W. PORTER: As I told you before, the Bundesarchiv Koblenz has NO ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS (at least none for the Nuremberg Trials). They told me so themselves. Why don't you write and ask them? You are right that the -2- should refer to the next page, I hadn't thought of that. The NMT documents reproduced in book form are TYPESET, without even any description of the documents (photocopy, mimeograph, certified true copy, original, etc.) or even any indication of WHETHER THEY WERE SIGNED OR NOT. In other words, the NMT volumes are almost completely worthless. They do not even contain the full transcript: for example, you get a whole series of questions asked by the prosecutor, to which the defendant or witness's answers have simply been deleted! There is no pretense that the witness remained silent; only the questions are considered worthy of interest.

The liquidation of partisans should probably refer to liquidation of partisans, not Jews, although of course the contrary case is quite possible, if the Germans felt that nearly ALL Jews were partisans, which I think would be going too far. One of the Nuremberg defendants, I think it was von Manstein, said there were next to NO JEWS among the partisans. That is probably going too far. In France, the Jews formed 15% of the partisans but were only 1% of the population.

...I think the document has been retyped simply changing the figures; 360,000 is a ridiculous number. Who the hell is going to fill in all those holes? The original could have read 3,000, so a team of Soviet forgers retypes the thing, transfers the signature by photographic means, or by hand (the Soviets had whole government departments that did nothing but forge passports and other documents for about 70 years), and presto!

It's absurd that anything incriminating would not bear a SECRET stamp. Either the document was not considered incriminating, or it is a fake. Of course the shooting of 3,000 partisans would not be considered incriminating.

It is very easy to alter an existing document but fairly difficult to fake an original out of whole cloth, i.e., without a model to copy. As I say, the Bundesarchiv Koblenz is busy microfilming all their documents, so the whole infinite regress of disappearing originals will now be placed one step further backwards. There must be Black Hole in the Universe filled with these things.

...I don't think that that is the first page of the document. It is obviously the second page. Yet the -2-, as you say, would normally refer to the following page, i.e, this should be the first page; but it seems strange. More riddles. Anyway, the figures are absurd. It's like all these documents saying the Germans cremated 10,000 or 20,000 bodies a day, or something. The document has to be forged, because what it describes is impossible.

Maybe somebody found a document that looked just like that, but said "Juden evakuiert". They retype it, substituting "Juden executiert", and voilà.

[...]

I think this is the way most of the Nuremberg documents were produced: by altering a single word or inserting a paragraph or page or occasionally an entire text, retaining the headings, if any. Faking an entire document is far from easy, but alteration is child's play; note the second paragraph above. That way, if necessary, you have the references, everything, so it fits into an entire file of authentic documents, if necessary, and may never be noticed, especially if the originals are never examined. As I have said, I consider the Himmler secret speech an altered speech on the military situation. That's just one example.

Most forgeries require a model of some sort. For example, the Kujau "Hitler diaries" were faked by copying the Hitler Table Talk, or something similar; it was the text (and the album covers) that gave him away. The handwriting was perfect (copied from Werner Maser's HITLERS BRIEFE UND NOTIZEN, published in 1973). If you look at http://www.crimelibrary.com there is a whole section on famous forgers, and you will see that very few of them produce original texts out of whole cloth; only signatures, which are often sold to private collectors and are never discovered. Almost the only successful exception was a Mormon who faked an original Emily Dickinson poem which was still being sold as authentic, certified by literary experts and handwriting experts, even after the guy had been in prison for almost 30 years. But that is very rare, in fact unique. A lot of people can fake a signature by Abraham Lincoln, for example, but when they try to fake a sentence or paragraph by him, they fail miserably, and get caught, because Lincoln's style in English is almost impossible to imitate.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi ... index.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi ... index.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi ... index.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi ... index.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi ... index.html



http://www.cwporter.com/letter25.htm
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Re: Massacres in the Soviet Union

Postby hermod » 5 years 3 months ago (Sat Jun 28, 2014 4:38 pm)

Hebden wrote:And the shooting of hundreds of thousands of people into pits in the Soviet Union? We suggest you deal with our point about the police decodes which apparently document thousands of such deaths. Be so kind to give us your opinion on these.


Carlos Whitlock Porter:

READER: [...] I am trying to understand this. Specialists on the Einsatzgruppen such as Krausnick/Wilhelm rely mostly on Ereignismeldungen UdSSR (Event Reports USSR).

These contain the event reports USSR(Ereignismeldungen UdSSR...), Tätigkeits- und Lageberichte( activity and situation reports..) and the Meldungen aus den besetzten Ostgebieten vom Chef der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD-Kommandostab". Now, what I am trying to find out is: Do the wartime Einsatzgruppen documents exist in the archives, or just negative photostats? I am trying to determine if these historians have used only these photocopies, or if they've used the originals. This seems very odd. Why do you think the originals from which the photocopies derived have vanished? (if that is the case).

[...]

C. W. PORTER: I'm not entirely clear as to the difference between the Einsatzgruppen reports and the Ereignismeldungen UdSSR (Event Reports USSR), event reports USSR, and (Ereignismeldungen UdSSR...), and the Tätigkeits- und Lageberichte.

I am quite certain that what I say is true because these facts -- particularly the disappearance of the original documents -- have been remarked upon by many people, revisionists and non-revisionists alike, including Pressac and Hilberg. There are no signatures, no letterheads, no originals and no sharp S. The original DID SIX MILLION REALLY DIE? written 30 years ago, remarks on all these points, except the sharp S. As I say, there must be authentic Einsatzgruppen reports, but nobody seems to know where they are.

There are no originals of any Nuremberg trial documents, except for a few, more or less insignificant documents. Even the "file copies" are photocopies. Many people have remarked that nobody knows where these documents are. Have a look at my articles on Jean-Clause Pressac (http://www.cwporter.com/undocs.htm): and these aren't even Nuremberg Trial documents. What line of argument other people use, I don't know. Faurisson and Mattogno probably know the most about these documents. There appear to be many original archive documents (hundreds of thousands of them), but they were not introduced into evidence at the trials. In other words, the rule seems to be: if it is an original, it is not incriminating.

Faurisson and Mattogno has seen these documents, but they certainly don't prove the existence of any gas chambers. Dog kennels, potato warehouses, horse stables, carpentry shops, ironworking shops, etc., etc. yes.

I suspect that the original Nuremberg Trial documents have vanished because the documents were mostly forgeries to start with, but they may have vanished for some other reason.

To me, engaging in complicated arguments about the "content" of apocryphal documents is putting the cart before the horse. To me, the first question is, is it an original? What kind of document is it? Where did the copy come from? What kind of copy is it? And so on. Then we'll argue about what they say. There are no originals, as a rule, especially, no Nuremberg Trial originals, or very few. And no rules of evidence, no chain of evidence. No requirement that original documents be presented.

Very few people visit the archives. They write for photocopies. If the photocopy is a positive, they don't know whether the original is there, or not. But most of them are negatives.

[...]

READER: Pretty good articles by the way. Revisionists should try to further dissect these Nuremberg documents and trials in detail. G. Rudolf was planning a book on those lines but unfortunately he has been put away.
Do you have any familiarity with document NO-1128? It is a document allegedly from Himmler to Hitler, reporting among other things the execution of more than 360.000 jews in only 4 months! You can see a reproduction of it at Irvings' website
here: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Meldung291242.html

A reader asks on the above webpage if Mr. Irving has seen the document, meaning I suppose, the original document. Unfortunately Mr. Irving, while stating he thinks the document is authentic, doesn't reply in regards to whether
he ever saw the original of it. He indicates the original should be now in file NS19/291, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.

C.W. PORTER: It is interesting to note Mr. Irving's exact words:

"As stated in David Irving's biography Hitler's War, the original of the laconic report by Himmler that 363,211 Russian Jews had been executed will be found on US National Archives microfilm T175/124. The original is now in file NS19/291, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz."

When Mr. Irving states that the "original" will be found on "microfilm", it becomes obvious that he simply does not understand what is meant by the word "original". Since the Bundesarchiv Koblenz has no original Nuremberg Trial documents (they told me so themselves), I doubt that the original is there, either. I think the document is ridiculous and the more I see of Irving the less I think he can be trusted.

READER: The only revisionist I have seen making any comments in regards to NO-1128 is Mr. Butz in his "Hoax", but only very briefly. He says Himmlers' signature is on an irrelevant p.1 while the execution claim is on p.4. That however seems wrong because the number -2- at the lower right hand, indicates the next page, does it not? Therefore the execution numbers would be on the first page (which by the way is strange, don't you think?). Butz's note indicates NMT, vol 13, 269-272 (excerpts only). Would that be a facsimile?

While Himmlers' signature indeed appears only on a different page, there seems to be a handwritten signature of a "Werner Grothmann", Himmler's adjutant at the lower right hand of the page detailing the executions.

You know, one thing I find very strange about this document and the Einsatzgruppen reports in general, is that one cannot see any "Top Secret" stamps or something of the sort. That seems very weird to me. Plus, as others have mentioned, this No-1128 is supposedly a document that discusses the "Partisanenkrieg" (guerrilla warfare). Why then, mix up Jewish executions in it? The insurgency problem in the USSR was already very serious at the end of 1942, and a report about it to Hitler should have been objective and thorough. I don't know, it just seems strange in the things it reports.

C.W. PORTER: As I told you before, the Bundesarchiv Koblenz has NO ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS (at least none for the Nuremberg Trials). They told me so themselves. Why don't you write and ask them? You are right that the -2- should refer to the next page, I hadn't thought of that. The NMT documents reproduced in book form are TYPESET, without even any description of the documents (photocopy, mimeograph, certified true copy, original, etc.) or even any indication of WHETHER THEY WERE SIGNED OR NOT. In other words, the NMT volumes are almost completely worthless. They do not even contain the full transcript: for example, you get a whole series of questions asked by the prosecutor, to which the defendant or witness's answers have simply been deleted! There is no pretense that the witness remained silent; only the questions are considered worthy of interest.

The liquidation of partisans should probably refer to liquidation of partisans, not Jews, although of course the contrary case is quite possible, if the Germans felt that nearly ALL Jews were partisans, which I think would be going too far. One of the Nuremberg defendants, I think it was von Manstein, said there were next to NO JEWS among the partisans. That is probably going too far. In France, the Jews formed 15% of the partisans but were only 1% of the population.

...I think the document has been retyped simply changing the figures; 360,000 is a ridiculous number. Who the hell is going to fill in all those holes? The original could have read 3,000, so a team of Soviet forgers retypes the thing, transfers the signature by photographic means, or by hand (the Soviets had whole government departments that did nothing but forge passports and other documents for about 70 years), and presto!

It's absurd that anything incriminating would not bear a SECRET stamp. Either the document was not considered incriminating, or it is a fake. Of course the shooting of 3,000 partisans would not be considered incriminating.

It is very easy to alter an existing document but fairly difficult to fake an original out of whole cloth, i.e., without a model to copy. As I say, the Bundesarchiv Koblenz is busy microfilming all their documents, so the whole infinite regress of disappearing originals will now be placed one step further backwards. There must be Black Hole in the Universe filled with these things.

...I don't think that that is the first page of the document. It is obviously the second page. Yet the -2-, as you say, would normally refer to the following page, i.e, this should be the first page; but it seems strange. More riddles. Anyway, the figures are absurd. It's like all these documents saying the Germans cremated 10,000 or 20,000 bodies a day, or something. The document has to be forged, because what it describes is impossible.

Maybe somebody found a document that looked just like that, but said "Juden evakuiert". They retype it, substituting "Juden executiert", and voilà.

[...]

I think this is the way most of the Nuremberg documents were produced: by altering a single word or inserting a paragraph or page or occasionally an entire text, retaining the headings, if any. Faking an entire document is far from easy, but alteration is child's play; note the second paragraph above. That way, if necessary, you have the references, everything, so it fits into an entire file of authentic documents, if necessary, and may never be noticed, especially if the originals are never examined. As I have said, I consider the Himmler secret speech an altered speech on the military situation. That's just one example.

Most forgeries require a model of some sort. For example, the Kujau "Hitler diaries" were faked by copying the Hitler Table Talk, or something similar; it was the text (and the album covers) that gave him away. The handwriting was perfect (copied from Werner Maser's HITLERS BRIEFE UND NOTIZEN, published in 1973). If you look at http://www.crimelibrary.com there is a whole section on famous forgers, and you will see that very few of them produce original texts out of whole cloth; only signatures, which are often sold to private collectors and are never discovered. Almost the only successful exception was a Mormon who faked an original Emily Dickinson poem which was still being sold as authentic, certified by literary experts and handwriting experts, even after the guy had been in prison for almost 30 years. But that is very rare, in fact unique. A lot of people can fake a signature by Abraham Lincoln, for example, but when they try to fake a sentence or paragraph by him, they fail miserably, and get caught, because Lincoln's style in English is almost impossible to imitate.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi ... index.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi ... index.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi ... index.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi ... index.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi ... index.html



http://www.cwporter.com/letter25.htm
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915


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