Gustav Hille's alleged photos

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Mark_Twain
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Gustav Hille's alleged photos

Postby Mark_Twain » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:05 am)

This is supposed to be a photo by Gustav Hille of an Einsatzgruppen shooting.

Image

[This thread has been changed per consent of our members to reflect it's subject more accurately. It was originally about a site with Revisionist views on the alleged 'Babi Yar massacre', but the image itself was not claimed to be of Babi Yar, a mistake which caused the entire thread to be confused, I have gone through the thread and deleted references to Babi Yar where appropriate.
Moderator1 - 11/2/05]

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Oct 29, 2005 10:59 am)

In the 2 books I have which feature this photo the captions say
more or less the same thing: These would be survivors of the
liquidation of the Mizocz ghetto, Ukraine, who were then taken to a
ravine south of Rovno and shot. But why take them someplace else?

The photo itself would make for an interesting discussion. Usually this
picture is shown together with another famous photo, which shows a
line of women, some with children, allegedly awaiting execution. The
photo Mark uploaded would be the execution itself.

The resolution is very bad but the uniforms dont seem to be german.
The gunman about to fire his submachine gun appears to be wearing
an armband which was typical of local auxialiary forces, i.g. russian,
ukrainians,etc. The weapon looks like a Bergmann submachine gun but
it is hard to tell due to the low quality of the photo. Interestingly the 2
men who can be seen in the other photo I mentioned, are clearly
wearing armbands.

One thing that has long since caught my attention is the lack of trauma,
the lack of blood on the victims. Their whiteness contrasts well with the
dark ground making their bodies very sharp and yet one cannot see
any blood. But perhaps it is due to the very low quality of the photo.
The way they are lying on the ground is a bit strange as well. Plus, a
pistol or bolt-action rifle would seem to be a better choice for this sort
of grisly business than submachine guns.

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:17 am)

I don't think there can be any doubt that those aren't German uniforms we see there.

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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Oct 29, 2005 11:46 am)

Richard Perle wrote:I don't think there can be any doubt that those aren't German uniforms we see there.


What I wonder is, who took this photograph and in what purpose? Who are the 'victims'? People are always quick to claim that dead people in a pit in WW2 are Jewish victims.
I also don't know if the two men on the photograph are German or not. Probably not. Those COULD be German uniforms, but who are the men wearing them, they don't have to be German.

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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Oct 29, 2005 12:46 pm)

http://www.ushmm.org/photos/17/17878.jpg
"A German police officer shoots Jewish women still alive after a mass execution of Jews from the Mizocz ghetto." (caption by USHMM on #17878)

The remaining members of the community were transported from the ghetto to this ravine in the Sdolbunov Gebietskommissariat, south of Rovno, where they were executed.

Information regarding this action, including the photos, were acquired from a man named Hille, who was the Bezirks-Oberwachtmeister of the Gendarmerie at the time. Hille apparently gave the five photos (there were originally seven) to the company lawyer of a textile firm in Kunert, Czechoslovakia, where he worked as a doorman after the war. The Czech government confiscated the photos from the lawyer in 1946 and they subsequently became public. That the photos indeed show the shooting of Jews in connection with the liquidation of the ghetto was also confirmed by a statement of Gendarmerie-Gebietsführer Josef Paur in 1961.

Date: Oct 14, 1942


Here is the photograph that grenadier mentioned:
Image
"Naked Jewish women, some of whom are holding infants, wait in a line before their execution by Ukrainian auxilliary police."

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Oct 29, 2005 2:58 pm)

Richard Perle wrote:
I don't think there can be any doubt that those aren't German uniforms we see there.


The headgear makes it even more unlikely as well as what I think is an
armband on the shooters left arm. It would be possible that they were
auxiliaries on SS orders or whatever else.

Vallon wrote:
Information regarding this action, including the photos, were acquired from a man named Hille, who was the Bezirks-Oberwachtmeister of the Gendarmerie at the time. Hille apparently gave the five photos (there were originally seven) to the company lawyer of a textile firm in Kunert, Czechoslovakia, where he worked as a doorman after the war. The Czech government confiscated the photos from the lawyer in 1946 and they subsequently became public.


While Vallon probably considers this enough I dont. I think the source
for the story and the photos are, as given by Vallon, very unreliable.
A man named Hille, citizen of a then communist country, apparently
gives the photos to somebody,etc, etc...

Yes Vallon, that was the second photo I was talking about, thanks. Do
you know this one has appeared as "women and children waiting to be gassed at Treblinka" - A. Donat -"The Death Camp Treblinka" ?

The first woman in the line, the one holding her son, seems strangely
calm. It contrasts sharply with one of the photos taken by U.S army
photographer, Ronald Haeberle, who recorded the massacre of My Lai
in 68, Vietnam, showing some women and children a little before the massacre and the terrified expressions on their faces.

These photos of My Lai are certainly proof of a crime, we know who
took them, when,etc. The ones shown on this thread, like so many
other Holocaust photos, are not.

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Postby Radar » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Oct 29, 2005 3:38 pm)

We are dealing with a massive and rather crude series of frauds here.

Vallon's photos from the Washington Holocaust Museum they are certainly very disturbing but completely unestablished in a forensic sense as related to the subjects claimed. How was their authenticity in the claimed context established other than by citing the Czech communist story mentioned, a source which no one would now accept? If such a photo were introduced in a US court to establish what Vallon claims much more would be needed or they would not be accepted as evidence of anything other than a disturbing photograph.

And could he please show us the other photographs seized by the Czech communists?

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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:18 pm)

grenadier wrote:While Vallon probably considers this enough I dont. I think the source for the story and the photos are, as given by Vallon, very unreliable.
No, I agree, this is not enough.

One needs a statement by the photographer (some "Hille"), or by other witnesses (Josef Paur? - I cannot find who this was).

USHMM makes a reference to a Ludwigsburg file (Zst. II 204 AR 1218/70).

Radar asked for the other photos. A search for Mizocz on USHMM gives two more (worse focus):
Image
"Jewish women and children are ordered to undress prior to their execution."

Image
"A German policeman prepares to complete a mass execution by shooting two Jewish children, who were shot with the others in connection with the liquidation of the Mizocz ghetto."

This is probably the fifth one:
Image
http://www1.yadvashem.org.il/Odot/prog/ ... PE/931.JPG
http://motlc.learningcenter.wiesenthal. ... 19562.html

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:24 pm)

Why are these naked apparently dead people all herded up in a mass. It's like they've been bunched up into the folds of the land, and it doesn't look like an ideal way to execute people. And nobody tried to run?

If we are to believe that tens of thousands of people were shot, we must believe that Jews lined up for hours listening to almost constant gunfire coming from the front of the line, and there doesn't seem to be many guards around.

These photos leave me baffled more than anything. With the well documented dishonesty of the communists and the tainted atmosphere that has existed ever since the war, I don't think we can take any claims about these photos or their origins as gospel. A believer might roll their eyes at that and dismiss it as a 'denier' denying clear evidence, but I feel it is the only truly responsible reaction.

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:36 pm)

RE that final photo above: We have a large group of people sat in a large ditch. I have no idea what they're doing there, but we're told they are waiting to be shot. They must have some idea of what is going to happen, and yet they're waiting there surrounded by - on the visible side at least - a small number of soldiers who appear to be without weapons. They could very well have holstered pistols, but it strikes me as odd that they aren't covering the prisoners with something heavier.

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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:40 pm)

At least I found Josef Paur. In 1963 convicted to 7 years in prison:
Crime Location: Sdolbunow, Misocz, Ostrog
Victims: Jews
Nationality: Soviet
Office: Polizei Gendarmerie Sdolbunow
Subject of the proceeding: Killing of individual Jews in the Sdolbunow and Misocz ghettos, by shooting and hanging. Shooting of many hundreds of Jewish men, women and children, as well as fatal mishandlings during the liquidation of the Sdolbunow, Misocz und Ostrog ghettos at October 13, 14 and 15, 1942

http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/brdeng ... eng553.htm

It is likely that these photos were used in the trial.

In 1965 he was acquitted of something else: "Shooting of a woman employed as interpreter with the territorial commissariat, as well as of her 8-year old daughter, because they were suspected of being of Jewish descent."
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/brd/brdeng ... eng592.htm

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Postby neocon » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:50 pm)

Crime Scene Investigation:

The "Vic's" Bodys are not covered by blood.

Where ist the "High Velocity Bloodsplatter" present at
any crimescene where someone is shot. If you shoot
a hole into someone, a "fountain od blood" will come out
of that hole. If The Vics are located like shown in that
Photo, the blood fountain of one vic will turn red/dark
the other vics...

looks staged something like this:

http://www.i-20.com/artist.php?artist_i ... ork_id=160

Spencer Tunick, my Hero in debunking stalinist massdestruction claims (hehe)...

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Postby Haldan » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:50 pm)

Vallon wrote:This is probably the fifth one:
Image


This is probably the sixth one:

Image

Compare those two! It looks like the one I posted must have been a early fraud attempt because the location looks similar aswell, and the men on the side, etc.
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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:55 pm)

Richard Perle wrote:They must have some idea of what is going to happen, and yet they're waiting there surrounded by - on the visible side at least - a small number of soldiers who appear to be without weapons.
If they had all run at the same time in different directions, probably some of them would have escaped. For a while.

But that needs some planning and communication. If the guards shot at anybody they saw talking, this would no doubt have worked very discouraging.

After 1945, condemned nazis walked to the gallows. They did not desperately try to avoid a certain death.

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Postby Vallon » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:59 pm)

Haldan wrote:This is probably the sixth one:

Unlikely. This is not a ravine, it is a dug grave. The sides are manmade.

Your source?


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