Show me or draw me a Nazi gas chamber ventilation system....

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Hebden
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Show me or draw me a Nazi gas chamber ventilation system....

Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed May 14, 2003 11:00 am)

Austrian Nazi death camp brings out its history at last

Mauthausen the latest to open a visitor centre

Ian Traynor in Mauthausen
Monday May 12, 2003
The Guardian

A pale grey motor powering a fan was used by the Nazis to extract fumes from the Austrian gas chamber in which 3,500 concentration camp inmates were murdered. On a hillside above the Danube yesterday, the fan and the motor were put on public display for the first time since the second world war.

Along with postcards and scribbled notes, scraps of documents and tools, computerised archives and recorded interviews with former inmates, the gas chamber fan is part of a museum opened yesterday at the Mauthausen concentration camp near the city of Linz that Hitler fantasised about making his imperial capital.

Mauthausen is perhaps the grimmest place in Austria, a hilltop fort where altogether more than 100,000 people, from countries from Spain to Russia, perished.

In a country that is good at forgetting, the concentration camp was for a long time neglected. But Mauthausen is also one of the biggest visitor attractions in Austria, bringing in more than 250,000 people every year - as many as troop through the Hapsburg palaces and museums of Vienna.

Thousands of people from all over Europe converged on the site yesterday to remember and mark the anniversary of its liberation by American troops in 1945, 58 years ago to the day.

And despite decades of Austrian amnesia about its role in the Holocaust, the new museum - an impressive squat structure of plain concrete blocks, steel and glass, located just outside the camp itself - has been built in record time by the Austrian government at a cost of €8m (£5.7m).

Its opening yesterday puts Austria alongside Germany, Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic in the vanguard of an unprecedented boom in Holocaust tourism and exhibition-staging.

Last week at the Nazis' first concentration camp, Dachau, north of Munich, the Bavarian prime minister Edmund Stoiber opened a new museum and learning centre, eight years in the making.

Next year in Budapest, Hungary is to get its first Holocaust museum. In Poland, a £40m Jewish history complex is to be built on the grounds of the old Warsaw ghetto, razed by the Nazis 60 years ago last month. The biggest death camp, Auschwitz-Birkenau, seems to be in a permanent state of development.

In Theresienstadt in the Czech Republic, funds are being poured in to restore the Nazi transit camp that suffered colossal damage in last summer's heavy flooding.

Three years ago, Berlin got a stunning new Jewish museum; and the German political and cultural elite is still debating the pros and cons of a gargantuan Holocaust memorial for the centre of Berlin.

"Internationally, there is a great amount of fascination," says Jerzy Halbersztadt, the director of the Warsaw Ghetto project. "These new museums reflect that same phenomenon."

"The generation that lived through it is dying out and so approaches are changing," says Bertrand Perz, who was in charge of part of the new Mauthausen exhibition. "It is all about how to portray a historical era. It's more about education and art rather than just preserving these places."

The projects are attracting some of the biggest names in international architecture. Daniel Libeskind famously designed Berlin's new museum in the form of a broken Star of David. Frank Gehry, acclaimed recently for the Guggenheim in Bilbao, has drawn up blueprints for the Warsaw ghetto project.

The new approach also takes advantage of the latest technology. The centrepiece of the Mauthausen museum is an oral history project, recording interviews on audio or video with 800 survivors.

"We wanted to move the administration buildings and the visitors' centre out of the camp itself, because the survivors and their relatives were making big demands that the camp should be left in peace," says Doris Wagner, an Austrian interior ministry official who was responsible for seeing the project through.

The template and the inspiration for this building bonanza in central Europe was the Holocaust Museum in Washington, which also made full use of modern electronics and cyber-communications. It has drawn 19 million visitors, 85% of them non-Jewish, in the decade since it opened. "It captured the imagination," says Mr Halbersztadt.

But one problem with this modern, narrative approach to telling the story of the Holocaust concerns "authenticity", with staged or restored artefacts from the camps emboldening Holocaust-deniers in their allegations that material evidence of the crime has been cooked up.

The argument over authenticity makes the fan and motor, exhibited yesterday for the first time, particularly valuable.

Forensic detail on the ghastly piece of machinery was recorded at the time by an American special agent, Jack Taylor, who was interned at Mauthausen for two months after parachuting into Austria and being captured.

But the fan disappeared, hauled away by freed Czech prisoners in 1945, and lay unremarked in a cellar at Theresienstadt for decades, until it was installed - unadorned and essentially untouched - in the new Mauthausen exhibition.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,953804,00.html

This must be the same Mr. Jack Taylor, pictured below with a Zyklon B gas introduction device, which also disappeared after the war. Rumour has it that it too ended up gathering dust somewhere in Theresienstadt.

Image

Information on Mr. Taylor's forensic investigation of these items would be welcome.

Here, for the record, is the Mauthausen gas chamber, cunningly disguised as a shower room, right down to the functioning showerheads:

Image

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed May 14, 2003 12:09 pm)

Hebden wrote: Here, for the record, is the Mauthausen gas chamber, cunningly disguised as a shower room, right down to the functioning showerheads:


The use of shower heads, whether for water or for the discharge of hydro-cyanide, requires water (or HCN) pressure. Without such presure not much will happen.
Just openeing a can of Zyklon B would not give such pressure of the escaping HCN.

There is one taboo in Germany: Germans must not attack Jews. That is the reason why such coverage is given to a Jew attacking another Jew. But only when this taboo is broken will Germany be really emancipated.


I believe that once this taboo is broken, the Holocaust story as we know it now, will not survive in Germany much longer than four weeks.

:D

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed May 14, 2003 1:59 pm)

article stated:
But the fan disappeared, hauled away by freed Czech prisoners in 1945, and lay unremarked in a cellar at Theresienstadt for decades, until it was installed - unadorned and essentially untouched - in the new Mauthausen exhibition.


Now why would freed prisoners steal a fan? How would it end up Theresienstadt? Perhaps it was actually from Theresienstadt and not Mauthausen.

The games the 'holocau$t' Industry plays, my my.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed May 14, 2003 3:07 pm)

Sailor wrote:
Hebden wrote: Here, for the record, is the Mauthausen gas chamber, cunningly disguised as a shower room, right down to the functioning showerheads:


The use of shower heads, whether for water or for the discharge of hydro-cyanide, requires water (or HCN) pressure. Without such presure not much will happen.
Just opening a can of Zyklon B would not give such pressure of the escaping HCN.


Perhaps you misunderstood our meaning. Our suggestion was not that the Zkylon came through the showerheads - only water. Legend has it that the gas, produced by a "Gaseinfüllapparat" which was located in the next room, diffused into the chamber through a long narrow opening in the wall. An opening, of which, we understand, there is no sign today. The place must have been retiled.

There is one taboo in Germany: Germans must not attack Jews. That is the reason why such coverage is given to a Jew attacking another Jew. But only when this taboo is broken will Germany be really emancipated.


I believe that once this taboo is broken, the Holocaust story as we know it now, will not survive in Germany much longer than four weeks.

:D


Or even a month.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed May 14, 2003 5:53 pm)

There is one taboo in Germany: Germans must not attack Jews. That is the reason why such coverage is given to a Jew attacking another Jew. But only when this taboo is broken will Germany be really emancipated.


For anybody unaware of the source of this quote, we point out that it comes from the lips of Professor Raoul Hilberg:

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/id48.htm

No doubt, in the hands of the CSIS (Canadian Security Intelligence Service), it would be interpreted as 'Mr. Hilberg incites Germans to attack Jews.'

On which note, it must be said that the CSIS report on Mr. Zundel takes the principle of guilt by association to new heights, or depths, depending on one's viewpoint.

We read through the following 43 page document, in expectation of the evidence demonstrating that Mr. Zundel, the self-professed Gandhi of the Right, has advocated, or been implicated in, the use of violence.

http://www.zundelsite.org/zundel_persecuted/legal/certificate/index.html

This appears to be the sum of it:

"Referring to a nation-wide search operation against white supremacists in Germany which took place in March 1981, Zundel stated that "the bigwigs and their Zionist behind-the-scenes manipulators" have gone too far with their searches and, then states "To say it with Mao Zedong: 'Then justice will be spoken from the barrel of a gun.'"

On the apparent strength of this, the CSIS could conclude:

"As a leadership figure within the Movement, Zundel has virtually no history of direct personal engagement in serious violence. However, his status within the milieu is such that adherents are inspired to actuate his ideology. By his comportment as a leader and ideologue, the Service believes that Zundel intends serious violence to be a consequence of his influence. To this extent, the Service believes and asserts that Zundel is engaged in the propogation of serious political violence to a degree commensurate with those who actually execute the acts."

Comment would be entirely superfluous.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed May 14, 2003 8:35 pm)

Hebden wrote: Our suggestion was not that the Zkylon came through the showerheads


Of course it is not the Zyklon, but the HCN that escapes from the Zyklon. The HCN gas has to be under pressure in order to travel through the pipes and through the holes in the shower heads. Withou pressure it would take a long time for the gas to diffuse into the alleged gas chamber. Too much resistance in the pipes and shower heads.

And I don’t think that the Zyklon after the can is opened will build quickly a lot of HCN gas pressure. I think that it takes about 3 to 4 hours to completely discharge all HCN from the Zyklon.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu May 15, 2003 11:51 am)

Hebden:

You are to refer to posters by the name they use at this Forum, see guidelines.

I have deleted your post accordingly.

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Postby grapple » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu May 15, 2003 12:02 pm)

Why did they use gas chambers when they could have just killed them by bathing them and have them stand outside on a cold day. It is also a good thing that Berlin gave such specific orders on how to kill them since they would probably never come up with such a method by themselves

SS Standartenfuehrer Ziereis, commander of the concentration camp Mauthausen confession just before he died

“Jenschk carried out the murders in the following manner: At an outside temperature of minus 12 degrees (centigrades) he made the inmates bath in water and then stand in the open stark naked until they died.”


“On orders from Berlin 2500 inmates from a transport from Auschwitz were bathed in hot water and during very cold weather had to stand in the open until they perished.”

http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps ... enEng.html

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu May 15, 2003 1:59 pm)

was stated:
“On orders from Berlin 2500 inmates from a transport from Auschwitz were bathed in hot water and during very cold weather had to stand in the open until they perished.”


So where are these "orders"?

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby grapple » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu May 15, 2003 3:10 pm)

So where are these "orders"?


Probably the same place where the Hitler Holocaust Order, the Jewish Soap Order, the Tattoo Skin LampShade Order, and the Pedal Controlled Brain Bashing Machine order is. But how can you not believe a wounded German Camp Commandant who confessed to all of these crimes just before he conveniently died

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu May 15, 2003 7:27 pm)

The photo of the rigus attended to by Taylor is exactly the kind of thing that would be used to deliver the agent from Zyklon B pellets. A force air fan blowing into a sealed chamber with the pellets and then onto any gas chambers. It doesn't appear to have had a heating element involved but that would have assisted in evaporating the agent in the pellets.

Now all we have to do is to wonder why we wouldn't have had something like that instead of those awkward introduction columns and all the hassle and inefficiency for those gas chambers at Auschwitz.

I would say, just like the Diesel tales, the wire mesh introduction column was invented in order to mock the story ala 'tongue in cheek'.

As it is, if such a thing for Mathausen then why not for Auschwitz? Almost as strong as - If no Mathausen rigus for Auschwitz then no Holocaust.

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Postby grapple » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 16, 2003 6:07 am)

I agree that the described equipment that was suppose to have been used in the Mathausen bathroom (Gas Chamber) seems to be much more in line with what would have been used if Zyklon-B was used in killing people than that which is described to have been used Auschwitz. However from what I have read the equipment was removed from the Bathroom and the walls sealed up so there is no physical evidence.

From the pictures I have seen it appears that the Bathroom was made from concrete, does anyone know if there are any signs of the holes through the wall or the mounting holes for the pipes and other equipment. This is because it is impossible to patch old concrete with new concrete and not leave definite signs of the patch. If there were signs of this disturbance to the concrete this would be evidence of Gassing, if there were no disturbance than its just another Gas Chamber story. Though at least one at makes more sense than the Auschwitz ones.

I have looked through various Holocaust Promoters websites but none that I have found show any place where the Gassing equipment was mounted or where it went through the walls into the Bathroom(Gas

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Postby Scott » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 16, 2003 11:58 pm)

Supposedly a couple of hot bricks from the crematoria or wherever were put in the metal ammunition box to heat the Zyklon. The apparatus looks like some kind of homemade portable fumigation rig to me. It is not impossible to rule out that it was used to execute people on some smaller scale but indeed it does beg the question as to why chiselling holes through the roofs of basements in Birkenau and Rube Goldberg introduction columns was needed. Perhaps to make the story square with the emerging testimonial, which is an a priori approach to finding out what happened, not to mention circular if the emerging "evidence" is reinforced by past stories.

At Majdanek there are supposedly cylinders of gas that were used adjacent to the gaschamber in one chamber and where Zyklon was used for delousing clothes and executions in the other, showing a hole cut into the roof and lots of the familiar blue staining.

Here is a clip of a newsreel of OSS Taylor being liberated as a POW from Mauthausen where he claims that other American POWs were executed with gas.
:)

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... hfilm.html

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Postby grapple » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat May 17, 2003 7:39 am)

Interesting video, I do note that LT Taylor also claims that he was in the Balkans in occupied territory for 18 months and then entered Austria where he was captured in Oct 1944 wearing a US Uniform. While it might have been possible to wear a US uniform in parts of the occupied Balkans, I do not think that he would enter Austria months ahead of the Allied Armies wearing such a uniform. While I have no proof, in my opinion, he is lying about his uniform in order to gain protection of the Geneva Convention. If he was willing to lie about this, I believe this raises questions about his other testimony in the film.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat May 17, 2003 8:05 am)

grapple wrote:
SS Standartenfuehrer Ziereis, commander of the concentration camp Mauthausen confession just before he died
http://www.jewishgen.org/ForgottenCamps/Camps/MauthausenEng.html


According to this website "On May 23,1945 SS Standartenfuehrer Ziereis, commander of the concentration camp Mauthausen, while trying to escape, was seriously wounded by shots from pursuing American soldiers."

It strikes one as curious that Mr. Ziereis would wait until the arrival of the Americans before trying to effect his escape. Did they turn up unannounced?

Here is what fellow-defendant Mr. Hans Fritzsche wrote, in his Nuremberg memoirs The Sword in the Scales, about Mr. Kaltenbrunner's cross-examination on the matter of the Ziereis confession:

In the Kaltenbrunner-Amen duel the evasiveness of the witness seemed to us completely justified; and in fact though Colonel Amen demanded unadorned affirmatives or negatives to his questions the court intervened on behalf, of the prisoner.

The American, who was an exceptionally skilled crossexaminer, suddenly launched a dramatic attack on the prisoner in the form of a most gravely incriminating document. It was a letter which a former prisoner in Mauthausen had ostensibly taken down from the dictation of the dying Commandant, Ziereis - a man who, an hour before the unchallenged entry of the Allied troops, had been alive and well. In this letter, which constituted a kind of last testament and contained admissions as well as accusations, it was stated that Kaltenbrunner had issued orders for specific individual executions as well as for mass killings.

With the persistence and despairing courage of a cat the prisoner, bit by bit, tore this document to shreds. His voice grew louder as he accused Amen of confusing the personal assertions of the Mauthausen captive who had taken it down with Ziereis' own testament (which since the Commandant had obviously been beaten to death was itself open to question). The affidavit of one Becher, an S.S. Leader, which to some extent confirmed the Ziereis statement, was then produced and resulted in an outburst on the part of the prisoner such as never occurred again during the whole course of the trial. Kaltenbrunner insisted that this same Becher had been Himmler's assistant in his revolting attempt to make capital out of Jews by selling those in whom other countries had any interest. Kaltenbrunner's diatribe against the prosecutor increased until he screamed at the top of his voice: "You think I'm going to break down! No, no, I shan't break down! I shall do what I can to discover the truth!" He raged and stormed and repeated sentences over and over again always ending with the words: "The truth-nothing but the truth!"

There was silence throughout the hall; even counsel for the Prosecution was dumb for a while; then after a long interval he said gravely: "It would need a novelist to have any idea of the truth about Kaltenbrunner."


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