How many Jews were killed?

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Ed Toner
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How many Jews were killed?

Postby Ed Toner » 1 decade 7 years ago (Sat May 17, 2003 1:21 pm)

Somewhere between 9,000,000 and 73,137

http://www.white-history.com/numbers.htm
The Holocaust Reviewed: Part One

How Many Jews Were Killed?

The significance of the Holocaust, or the alleged mass murder of six million Jews by Nazis during World War Two, lies not so much in its effect upon Nazis or Jews, but in its use to suppress any discussion or argument on the topic of race since the end of the Second World War. For this reason alone, an overview of the basic facts surrounding the Holocaust is of critical importance.

NAZIS ESTIMATE 4.5 MILLION JEWS UNDER THEIR CONTROL

The Nazis themselves said that they only had 4.5 million Jews under their direct control (see the analysis of the Wannsee Minutes) and they would have, in 1941 at least, when that estimate was made, had no particular reason to lie.

This figure is of particular interest when it is considered that as of 1988, some 4.3 million claims for compensation had been filed against the West German government by Holocaust survivors, according to the Federal German government.

Despite this, estimates by non-Nazi sources of the numbers of victims of Nazi concentration camps has varied wildly from six million to 11 million, depending upon which source one cares to consult.

THE ORIGIN OF THE SIX MILLION FIGURE

The figure of six million was arrived at on the basis of two sources: first on the evidence of a former SS officer, Wilhelm Hottl, who before the Nuremberg War Crimes Trials stated that Adolf Eichmann, head of the Jewish Division of the Gestapo, had told him that 4 million Jews had died in concentration camps and 2 million had died "elsewhere". (Trial of the Major War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, Germany, Vol. XXI, Doc, 2738-PS, p. 85).

The other source for this is a statement taken from the former commandant of the Auschwitz camp, Rudolf Hoess, who in a written statement declared that four million Jews had been killed at Auschwitz alone. Hoess was hanged at Auschwitz by the Soviets immediately after making this statement.

This figure quoted by Hoess is however universally acknowledged as being too high, especially as Hoess was relieved of his command of Auschwitz in 1943, long before the camp was closed down, and as such would not have been able to tell with any certainty how many Jews passed through its gates by August 1944.

JEWISH SCHOLARS DENY SOAP, LAMPSHADES HORROR STORIES

At the end of the war it was claimed that the Dachau and Bergen-Belsen camps in Germany (from where the horrific pictures of scores of dead bodies emanated) had operating gas chambers; and that in camps in Poland, Jews had been killed in "steam chambers" or had been skinned to make lamp shades, gloves and their body fat made into soap.

All of these horror stories have in the subsequent years been refuted by all serious scholars, including the leading Jewish scholar on the issue, Raul Hilberg (who in 1998 was a Professor of Political Science at the University of Vermont, and author of the world famous book "The Destruction of the European Jews").

JEWISH ESTIMATE SEES NUMBER OF HOLOCAUST DEAD DROP TO 2.8 MILLION

According to Hilberg, as quoted in an article written by himself in the 1998 Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia under the heading Holocaust, the six camps, their means of killing and their total number of victims was as follows:

"Chelmno had gas vans, and its death toll was 150,000; Belzec had carbon monoxide gas chambers in which 600,000 Jews were killed; Sobibor's gas chambers accounted for 250,000 dead; Treblinka's for 700,000 to 800,000; At Majdanek, some 50,000 were gassed or shot; and in Auschwitz, the Jewish dead totaled more than 1 million."

- Raul Hilberg, "Holocaust," Microsoft "Encarta" 98 Encyclopedia. 1993-1997 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.)"

This only accounts for 2.8 million dead: (as the other camps did not have gas chambers); if Hilberg's figures are correct, then the number of six million dead drops, by Jewish estimates, by half to just over 3 million, even if the verified Einsatzgruppen victims are included.

Hilberg offers no explanation for the fact that the Nuremberg trials (both Hottl and Hoess) claimed figures twice as large (or in Auschwitz's case, four times as large); more disturbingly, no attempt is ever made to correct the still quoted figure of six million which is so popular with the media to this day, and which has been repeated so often that it is an article of faith for many.

Hilberg, who has spent 36 years studying the Holocaust and the subsequent Nuremberg trials, has himself often changed his estimates: in 1985, he told a Canadian court that that five million Jews were killed during the war - substantially up on his 1998 estimate of 2.8 million. (Scientific evidence of Holocaust missing, The Sault Star Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario, January 18, 1985).

THE SHRINKING NUMBERS OF DEAD AT AUSCHWITZ

The best example of how the figures for the number of Jews killed varies can be seen from this table: the left hand column is the number of dead as alleged in the source, stated in the right hand column. From this overview it can be seen that estimates of the number of people who died in Auschwitz has varied over the years from 9 million to 73,000.

Number of Alleged Dead in Auschwitz
Source

9,000,000 Cited by the French documentary, Night and Fog, which has been shown to millions of school students worldwide.

8,000,000 The French War Crime Research Office, Doc. 31, 1945.

7,000,000 Also cited by the French War Crime Research Office.

6,000,000 Cited in the book “Auschwitz Doctor” by Miklos Nyiszli. It has since been proven that this book is a fraud and the "doctor" was never even at Auschwitz, even though the book is often cited by historians.

5,000,000 to 5,500,000 Cited in 1945 at the trial of Auschwitz commander Rudolf Hoess, based on his “confession” which was written in English, a language he never spoke.

5,000,000 Cited on April 20, 1978 by the French daily, Le Monde. Also cited on January 23, 1995 by the German daily Die Welt. By September 1, 1989, Le Monde reduced the figure to 1,433,000.

4,500,000 In 1945 this figure was cited by another witness at the aforementioned Hoess trial.

4,000,000 Cited by a Soviet document of May 6, 1945 and officially acknowledged by the Nuremberg War Crimes trial. This figure was also reported in The New York Times on April 18, 1945, although 50 years later on January 26, 1995 (see below), The New York Times and The Washington Post slashed the figure to 1,500,000 citing new findings by the Auschwitz Museum officials. In fact, the figure of 4,000,000 was later repudiated by the Auschwitz museum officials in 1990 (see below) but the figure of 1,500,000 victims was not formally announced by Polish President Lech Walesa until five years after the Auschwitz historians had first announced their discovery.

3,500,000 Cited in the 1991 edition of the Dictionary of the French Language and by Claude Lanzmann in 1980 in his introduction to Filip Muller's book, “Three Years in an Auschwitz Gas Chamber.”

3,000,000 Cited in a forced confession by Rudolf Hoess, the Auschwitz commander who said this was the number of those who had died at Auschwitz prior to Dec. 1, 1943. Later cited in the June 7, 1993 issue of Heritage, the most widely read Jewish newspaper in California, even though three years previously the authorities at the Auschwitz museum had scaled down the figure to a minimum of 1,100,000 and a maximum of 1,500,000. (see below).

2,500,000 Cited by a famous "witness to the Holocaust," Rudolf Vrba, when he testified on July 16, 1981 for the Israeli government's war crimes trial of former SS official Adolf Eichmann.

2,000,000 Cited by no less than three famous Holocaust historians, including Leon Poliakov (1951) writing in “Harvest of Hate”; Georges Wellers, writing in 1973 in “The Yellow Star at the Time of Vichy”; and Lucy Dawidowicz, writing in 1975 in “The War Against the Jews.”

2,000,000 to 4,000,000 Cited by Israeli historian Yehuda Bauer in 1982 in his book, “A History of the Holocaust.” However, by 1989 Bauer revised his figures and determined that the actual number was lower: 1,600,000.

1,600,000 This is a 1989 revision by Israeli historian Yehuda Bauer of his earlier figure in 1982 of 2,000,000 to 4,000,000, Bauer cited this new figure on September 22, 1989 in The Jerusalem Post, at which time he wrote' 'The larger figures have been dismissed for years, except that it hasn't reached the public yet."

1,500,000 In 1995 this was the “official" number of Auschwitz deaths announced by Polish President Lech Walesa as determined by the historians at the Auschwitz museum. This number was inscribed on the monument at the Auschwitz camp at that time, thereby "replacing" the earlier 4,000,000 figure that had been formally repudiated (and withdrawn from the monument) five years earlier in 1990. At that time, on July 17, 1990 The Washington Times reprinted a brief article from The London Daily Telegraph citing the "new" figure of 1,500,000 that had been determined by the authorities at the Auschwitz museum. This new figure was reported two years later in a UPI report published in the New York Post on March 26, 1992. On January 26, 1995 both The Washington Post and The New York Times cited this 1,500,000 figure as the new "official" figure (citing the Auschwitz Museum authorities).

1,471,595 This is a 1983 figure cited by historian Georges Wellers who (as noted previously) had determined, writing in 1973, that some 2,000,000 had died. In his later calculation, Wellers decided that of the 1,471,595 who had died at Auschwitz, 1,352,980 were Jews.

1,433,000 This figure was cited on September 1, 1989 by the French daily, Le Monde, which earlier, on April 20, 1978, had cited the figure at 4,000,000.

1,250,000 In 1985, historian Raul Hilberg arrived at this figure in his book, “The Destruction of the European Jews.” According to Hilberg, of those dead, some 1,000,000 were Jews.

1,100,000 to 1,500,000 Sources for this estimate are historians Yisrael Gutman and Michael Berenbaum (later of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum) in their 1984 book, “Anatomy of the Auschwitz Death Camp”; also Dr. Franciszek Piper, the curator of the Auschwitz Museum, writing a chapter in that book. This estimate was later also cited by Walter Reich, former director of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum, writing in The Washington Post on September 8, 1998. The upper figure of 1,500,000 thus remains the "official" figure as now inscribed at Auschwitz, with the earlier figure of 4,000,000 having been removed from the memorial at the site of the former concentration camp.

1,000,000 Jean-Claude Pressac, writing in his 1989 book “Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers.” This is interesting since he wrote his book to repudiate so-called "Holocaust deniers" who were called that precisely because they had questioned the numbers of those who had died at Auschwitz.

900,000 Reported on August 3, 1990 11, by Aufbau, a Jewish newspaper in New York.

800,000 to 900,000 Reported by Gerald Reitlinger in his 1953 book, “The Final Solution.” This figure is notable, considering the fact that it reduces the Auschwitz death total from the 4,000,000 figure that was widely in vogue in 1953.

775,000 to 800,000 Jean-Claude Pressac's revised figure, put forth in his 1993 book, “The Crematoria of Auschwitz: The Mass Murder's Machinery”, scaling down the figure from Pressac's 1989 claim of 1,000,000 dead. At this juncture, Pressac said that of the new number, 630,000 were Jews.

630,000 to 710,000 In 1994 Pressac scaled his figure down somewhat further; this is the figure cited in the German language translation of Pressac's 1993 book originally published in French. Again, this is substantially less than Pressac's 1989 figure of 1,000,000.

73,137 This figure was reported in The New York Times on March 3, 1991 and was based entirely on the wartime German concentration camp records that had been captured by the Soviets and just recently released. According to this figure, of those dead, 38,031 were Jews. These records state that the total of all persons who died in the ENTIRE German prison camp system from 1935 to 1945 were 403,713. To repeat: a total of 403,713 persons of all races and religions was officially recorded to have died (of all causes. typhus, old age, measles, etc.-and execution) in the entire prison camp system over a 10 year period. Of those 403,713 a total of 73,137 died at Auschwitz. Of those 73,137 who died at Auschwitz, 38,031 were Jews.


- (This table and its contents first appeared in The Barnes Review, January / February 2001)



Above left: This was the plaque on display at the Auschwitz camp until 1989: note the "4 million" victims. Above right: This is the plaque currently on display at Auschwitz (2002) - note the suddenly reduced number of victims to 1.5 million - a casual reduction in the number of deaths by 2.5 million.

GROSS EXAGGERATIONS ARE THE NORM IN HOLOCAUST STORIES

The staggering casualness with figures of dead Jews is illustrated further by a review of two of the more famous "Holocaust Survivor" books:

- Olga Lengyel’s "Five Chimneys: a woman survivor’s true story of Auschwitz" (Granada/ Ziff-Davis, 1947, 1972); and

- Kitty Hart's "Return to Auschwitz" - paperback edition by Granada (1981, 1983).

"100,000 EVERY FOUR DAYS" = 6 MILLION IN 8 MONTHS

The blurb on the cover of Olga Lengyel’s Five Chimneys: a woman survivor’s true story of Auschwitz (Granada/ Ziff-Davis, 1947, 1972) quotes the New York Herald-Tribune: "Passionate, tormenting". Albert Einstein is quoted: "You have done a real service by letting the ones who are now silent and most forgotten (sic) speak."

What does Lengyel say?

"After June, 1943, the gas chamber was reserved exclusively for Jews and Gypsies.. Three hundred and sixty corpses every half-hour, which was all the time it took to reduce human flesh to ashes, made 720 per hour, or 17,280 corpses per twenty-four hour shift. And the ovens, with murderous efficiency, functioned day and night. However, one must also reckon the death pits, which could destroy another 8,000 cadavers a day. In round numbers, about 24,000 corpses were handled each day. An admirable production record, one that speaks well for German industry." (Lengyel, 'Five Chimneys: a woman survivor’s true story of Auschwitz’ pp 80 - 81).

This implies almost 100,000 corpses per four working days, or a million in 40 days, or six million in 240 days (eight months). This for the Auschwitz camp alone - not including any other camp.

FURTHER OUTRAGEOUS EXAGGERATIONS

Kitty Hart, a Polish Jewess, wrote in her book "Return to Auschwitz" - paperback edition by Granada (1981, 1983) wrote the following:

"Working around the clock, the four units together could dispose of about 18,000 bodies every twenty-four hours, while the open pits coped with a further 8,000 in the same period." (Hart, "Return to Auschwitz" p 118).

This means 26,000 bodies every 24 hours, or 182,000 every week, reaching the magic 6 million figure in an astonishing 33 weeks, or eight months.

"200,000 EVERY FIVE DAYS" = 6 MILLION IN 30 DAYS

Martin Gilbert, a well known Jewish writer and biographer of Winston Churchill, holding a senior and supposedly respected position within the academic community, also glibly passes off the most outrageous figures with regard to Auschwitz in his book "Auschwitz and the Allies" (Gilbert, Martin, New York: Henry Holt, 1981). In this book he states:

"The deliberate attempt to destroy systematically all of Europe’s Jews was unsuspected in the spring and early summer of 1942: the very period during which it was at its most intense, and during which hundreds of thousands of Jews were being gassed every day at Belzec, Chelmo, Sobibor and Treblinka." (Gilbert, Auschwitz and the Allies, p.26).

If it is assumed, according to Gilbert's figures, that a minimum of 200,000 Jews per day were being gassed (he says "hundreds of thousands"), this amounts to one million every five-days, or 6 million in 30 days.

This is obviously impossible, and makes a complete mockery of the supposed "academics" who claim to be authorities on the Holocaust.

Revisionist Historians and Forensic Investigation

It is this casual juggling with millions of numbers (in the Auschwitz example above, the figures differ by as much as 8.4 million) and the serious lack of any direct physical evidence to support the allegations of mass gassings, which has encouraged the rise of what is known as revisionist holocaust studies.

Increasingly large numbers of historians around the world are researching the whole issue of the Nazi concentration camps, some going to great lengths such as taking forensic samples from the remains of the camps, doing analysis of soil at alleged mass grave sites and studying in detail survivor accounts of such mass murders. All of these activities are reviewed in the following sections.

Part Two: The Wanssee Conference Reviewed

Part Three: Auschwitz: Extermination or Labor Camp?

Part Four: Treblinka: A Forensic Examination

Part Five: Faked Holocaust Memoirs - Simon Wiesenthal

Part Six: The Theater of Lies - the John Demjanjuk Case

Part Seven: Germans of Jewish Descent who served Hitler

Part Eight: The Holocaust as Viewed by a Jewish Scholar


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

or back to

"The Final Solution - Nazi Policy Towards Jews"

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Re: How many Jews were killed?

Postby Godfred » 6 years 3 months ago (Fri May 30, 2014 6:32 pm)

I feel we need a informative thread for collecting the revisionist estimate of total jewish wartime/holocaust deaths, so I'm bumbing this.

In summary, what happened to the millions of Jews that once lived in Europe falls into these categories; The majority emigrated to other parts of the world; A large fraction stayed in Eastern Europe which came under Soviet control; Another fraction, probably on the order of one million died during the war in Nazi camps, in Soviet camps, in Soviet military service, in pogroms, in German anti-partisan actions which included reprisal killings, or of disease and privation.


http://codoh.com/library/document/1042/

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Re: How many Jews were killed?

Postby cold beer » 6 years 3 months ago (Fri May 30, 2014 10:11 pm)

Ed Toner wrote:
This only accounts for 2.8 million dead: (as the other camps did not have gas chambers); if Hilberg's figures are correct, then the number of six million dead drops, by Jewish estimates, by half to just over 3 million, even if the verified Einsatzgruppen victims are included.


Are there verified Einsatzgruppen victims?

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Re: How many Jews were killed?

Postby Inquisitor » 6 years 3 months ago (Sat May 31, 2014 1:04 am)

cold beer wrote:
Ed Toner wrote:
This only accounts for 2.8 million dead: (as the other camps did not have gas chambers); if Hilberg's figures are correct, then the number of six million dead drops, by Jewish estimates, by half to just over 3 million, even if the verified Einsatzgruppen victims are included.


Are there verified Einsatzgruppen victims?


What do we mean by "verified?" That's a loaded word, obviously.

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Re: How many Jews were killed?

Postby cold beer » 6 years 3 months ago (Sat May 31, 2014 2:26 am)

Inquisitor wrote:What do we mean by "verified?" That's a loaded word, obviously.

I'm quoting the line in the article.
For me it would mean that they have hard evidence, forensic evidence.

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Re: How many Jews were killed?

Postby ivam » 6 years 3 months ago (Sat May 31, 2014 2:41 am)

is there a source for
"This figure is of particular interest when it is considered that as of 1988, some 4.3 million claims for compensation had been filed against the West German government by Holocaust survivors, according to the Federal German government. "

if been trying to find a verifyable source for the compensation claims to use as evidence but cant seem to come across any.

any help in the right direction would be brilliant

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Re: How many Jews were killed?

Postby Inquisitor » 6 years 3 months ago (Sat May 31, 2014 4:26 am)

cold beer wrote:
Inquisitor wrote:What do we mean by "verified?" That's a loaded word, obviously.

I'm quoting the line in the article.
For me it would mean that they have hard evidence, forensic evidence.


Of course - I should have been more clear as that was something of a rhetorical question on my part. I agree completely - hard/forensic-evidence, or it's just so much more hearsay, information gleaned from questionable/dubious documents, etc. The usual garbage, in other words!

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Re: How many Jews were killed?

Postby hermod » 6 years 3 months ago (Sat May 31, 2014 9:08 am)

cold beer wrote:
Ed Toner wrote:
This only accounts for 2.8 million dead: (as the other camps did not have gas chambers); if Hilberg's figures are correct, then the number of six million dead drops, by Jewish estimates, by half to just over 3 million, even if the verified Einsatzgruppen victims are included.


Are there verified Einsatzgruppen victims?


What Carlos Whitlock Porter has to say about the alleged "Einsatzgruppen reports":

READER: [...] I am trying to understand this. Specialists on the Einsatzgruppen such as Krausnick/Wilhelm rely mostly on Ereignismeldungen UdSSR (Event Reports USSR).

These contain the event reports USSR(Ereignismeldungen UdSSR...), Tätigkeits- und Lageberichte( activity and situation reports..) and the Meldungen aus den besetzten Ostgebieten vom Chef der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD-Kommandostab". Now, what I am trying to find out is: Do the wartime Einsatzgruppen documents exist in the archives, or just negative photostats? I am trying to determine if these historians have used only these photocopies, or if they've used the originals. This seems very odd. Why do you think the originals from which the photocopies derived have vanished? (if that is the case).

[...]

C. W. PORTER: I'm not entirely clear as to the difference between the Einsatzgruppen reports and the Ereignismeldungen UdSSR (Event Reports USSR), event reports USSR, and (Ereignismeldungen UdSSR...), and the Tätigkeits- und Lageberichte.

I am quite certain that what I say is true because these facts -- particularly the disappearance of the original documents -- have been remarked upon by many people, revisionists and non-revisionists alike, including Pressac and Hilberg. There are no signatures, no letterheads, no originals and no sharp S. The original DID SIX MILLION REALLY DIE? written 30 years ago, remarks on all these points, except the sharp S. As I say, there must be authentic Einsatzgruppen reports, but nobody seems to know where they are.

There are no originals of any Nuremberg trial documents, except for a few, more or less insignificant documents. Even the "file copies" are photocopies. Many people have remarked that nobody knows where these documents are. Have a look at my articles on Jean-Clause Pressac (http://www.cwporter.com/undocs.htm): and these aren't even Nuremberg Trial documents. What line of argument other people use, I don't know. Faurisson and Mattogno probably know the most about these documents. There appear to be many original archive documents (hundreds of thousands of them), but they were not introduced into evidence at the trials. In other words, the rule seems to be: if it is an original, it is not incriminating.

Faurisson and Mattogno has seen these documents, but they certainly don't prove the existence of any gas chambers. Dog kennels, potato warehouses, horse stables, carpentry shops, ironworking shops, etc., etc. yes.

I suspect that the original Nuremberg Trial documents have vanished because the documents were mostly forgeries to start with, but they may have vanished for some other reason.

To me, engaging in complicated arguments about the "content" of apocryphal documents is putting the cart before the horse. To me, the first question is, is it an original? What kind of document is it? Where did the copy come from? What kind of copy is it? And so on. Then we'll argue about what they say. There are no originals, as a rule, especially, no Nuremberg Trial originals, or very few. And no rules of evidence, no chain of evidence. No requirement that original documents be presented.

Very few people visit the archives. They write for photocopies. If the photocopy is a positive, they don't know whether the original is there, or not. But most of them are negatives.

[...]

READER: Pretty good articles by the way. Revisionists should try to further dissect these Nuremberg documents and trials in detail. G. Rudolf was planning a book on those lines but unfortunately he has been put away.
Do you have any familiarity with document NO-1128? It is a document allegedly from Himmler to Hitler, reporting among other things the execution of more than 360.000 jews in only 4 months! You can see a reproduction of it at Irvings' website
here: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Meldung291242.html

A reader asks on the above webpage if Mr. Irving has seen the document, meaning I suppose, the original document. Unfortunately Mr. Irving, while stating he thinks the document is authentic, doesn't reply in regards to whether
he ever saw the original of it. He indicates the original should be now in file NS19/291, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz.

C.W. PORTER: It is interesting to note Mr. Irving's exact words:

"As stated in David Irving's biography Hitler's War, the original of the laconic report by Himmler that 363,211 Russian Jews had been executed will be found on US National Archives microfilm T175/124. The original is now in file NS19/291, Bundesarchiv, Koblenz."

When Mr. Irving states that the "original" will be found on "microfilm", it becomes obvious that he simply does not understand what is meant by the word "original". Since the Bundesarchiv Koblenz has NO original Nuremberg Trial documents (they told me so themselves), I doubt that the original is there, either. I think the document is ridiculous and the more I see of Irving the less I think he can be trusted.

READER: The only revisionist I have seen making any comments in regards to NO-1128 is Mr. Butz in his "Hoax", but only very briefly. He says Himmlers' signature is on an irrelevant p.1 while the execution claim is on p.4. That however seems wrong because the number -2- at the lower right hand, indicates the next page, does it not? Therefore the execution numbers would be on the first page (which by the way is strange, don't you think?). Butz's note indicates NMT, vol 13, 269-272 (excerpts only). Would that be a facsimile?

While Himmlers' signature indeed appears only on a different page, there seems to be a handwritten signature of a "Werner Grothmann", Himmler's adjutant at the lower right hand of the page detailing the executions.

You know, one thing I find very strange about this document and the Einsatzgruppen reports in general, is that one cannot see any "Top Secret" stamps or something of the sort. That seems very weird to me. Plus, as others have mentioned, this No-1128 is supposedly a document that discusses the "Partisanenkrieg" (guerrilla warfare). Why then, mix up Jewish executions in it? The insurgency problem in the USSR was already very serious at the end of 1942, and a report about it to Hitler should have been objective and thorough. I don't know, it just seems strange in the things it reports.

C.W. PORTER: As I told you before, the Bundesarchiv Koblenz has NO ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS (at least none for the Nuremberg Trials). They told me so themselves. Why don't you write and ask them? You are right that the -2- should refer to the next page, I hadn't thought of that. The NMT documents reproduced in book form are TYPESET, without even any description of the documents (photocopy, mimeograph, certified true copy, original, etc.) or even any indication of WHETHER THEY WERE SIGNED OR NOT. In other words, the NMT volumes are almost completely worthless. They do not even contain the full transcript: for example, you get a whole series of questions asked by the prosecutor, to which the defendant or witness's answers have simply been deleted! There is no pretense that the witness remained silent; only the questions are considered worthy of interest.

The liquidation of partisans should probably refer to liquidation of partisans, not Jews, although of course the contrary case is quite possible, if the Germans felt that nearly ALL Jews were partisans, which I think would be going too far. One of the Nuremberg defendants, I think it was von Manstein, said there were next to NO JEWS among the partisans. That is probably going too far. In France, the Jews formed 15% of the partisans but were only 1% of the population.

...I think the document has been retyped simply changing the figures; 360,000 is a ridiculous number. Who the hell is going to fill in all those holes? The original could have read 3,000, so a team of Soviet forgers retypes the thing, transfers the signature by photographic means, or by hand (the Soviets had whole government departments that did nothing but forge passports and other documents for about 70 years), and presto!

It's absurd that anything incriminating would not bear a SECRET stamp. Either the document was not considered incriminating, or it is a fake. Of course the shooting of 3,000 partisans would not be considered incriminating.

It is very easy to alter an existing document but fairly difficult to fake an original out of whole cloth, i.e., without a model to copy. As I say, the Bundesarchiv Koblenz is busy microfilming all their documents, so the whole infinite regress of disappearing originals will now be placed one step further backwards. There must be Black Hole in the Universe filled with these things.

...I don't think that that is the first page of the document. It is obviously the second page. Yet the -2-, as you say, would normally refer to the following page, i.e, this should be the first page; but it seems strange. More riddles. Anyway, the figures are absurd. It's like all these documents saying the Germans cremated 10,000 or 20,000 bodies a day, or something. The document has to be forged, because what it describes is impossible.

Maybe somebody found a document that looked just like that, but said "Juden evakuiert". They retype it, substituting "Juden executiert", and voilà.

[...]

I think this is the way most of the Nuremberg documents were produced: by altering a single word or inserting a paragraph or page or occasionally an entire text, retaining the headings, if any. Faking an entire document is far from easy, but alteration is child's play; note the second paragraph above. That way, if necessary, you have the references, everything, so it fits into an entire file of authentic documents, if necessary, and may never be noticed, especially if the originals are never examined. As I have said, I consider the Himmler secret speech an altered speech on the military situation. That's just one example.

Most forgeries require a model of some sort. For example, the Kujau "Hitler diaries" were faked by copying the Hitler Table Talk, or something similar; it was the text (and the album covers) that gave him away. The handwriting was perfect (copied from Werner Maser's HITLERS BRIEFE UND NOTIZEN, published in 1973). If you look at http://www.crimelibrary.com there is a whole section on famous forgers, and you will see that very few of them produce original texts out of whole cloth; only signatures, which are often sold to private collectors and are never discovered. Almost the only successful exception was a Mormon who faked an original Emily Dickinson poem which was still being sold as authentic, certified by literary experts and handwriting experts, even after the guy had been in prison for almost 30 years. But that is very rare, in fact unique. A lot of people can fake a signature by Abraham Lincoln, for example, but when they try to fake a sentence or paragraph by him, they fail miserably, and get caught, because Lincoln's style in English is almost impossible to imitate.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi ... index.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi ... index.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi ... index.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi ... index.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mi ... index.html



http://www.cwporter.com/letter25.htm
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: How many Jews were killed?

Postby cold beer » 6 years 3 months ago (Sat May 31, 2014 2:14 pm)

hermod wrote:What Carlos Whitlock Porter has to say about the alleged "Einsatzgruppen reports":

Very interesting, I have some questions.
What/who is Bundesarchiv, Koblenz ?
What benefit would there be to have originals which were used during the trials?
I'm assuming their authenticity couldn't be challenged on a forensic basis because if forged they would have been forged more or less contemporary to the events.
If forensics could in fact, determine whether a document dates from 1945 or 1946 as opposed to 1942 or 1943 it would be of no consequence because forensic testing of these documents isn't going to be permitted.
We don't see any use of forensics that I know of, it is as if there is a policy to ignore the existence of forensic science.

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Re: How many Jews were killed?

Postby Landulf » 6 years 3 months ago (Sat May 31, 2014 3:56 pm)

Are there any sources for the German governments statement of 4,3 mil. claims to get paid????

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Re: How many Jews were killed?

Postby hermod » 6 years 3 months ago (Sat May 31, 2014 6:42 pm)

cold beer wrote:What/who is Bundesarchiv, Koblenz ?


Germany's national archives.


What benefit would there be to have originals which were used during the trials?


Contrarily to what most people think, there were no originals used at Nuremberg. Only certified (ahem) copies of copies, etc. And the originals are nowhere to be found today, probably to hide the forgeries and dissonances between the originals and the 'copies'.

The Nuremberg DOCUMENTS

Image
Alleged repository of the alleged "original documents" from the Nuremberg Trials

The standard version of events is that the Allies examined 100,000 documents and chose 1,000 which were introduced into evidence, and that the original documents were then deposited in the Peace Palace at The Hague. This is rather inexact.

The documents used in evidence at Nuremberg consisted largely of "photocopies" of "copies". Many of these original documents were written entirely on plain paper without handwritten markings of any kind, by unknown persons. Occasionally, there is an illegible initial or signature of a more or less unknown person certifying the document as a 'true copy'.

Sometimes there are German stamps, sometimes not. Many have been 'found' by the Russians, or 'certified authentic' by Soviet War Crimes Commissions.

Volume XXXIII, a document volume taken at random, contains 20 interrogations or affidavits, 12 photocopies, 5 unsigned copies, 5 original documents with signatures, 4 copies of printed material, 3 mimeographed copies, 3 teletypes, 1 microfilmm copy, 1 copy signed by somebody else and 1 unspecified.

The Hague has few, if any, original documents. The Hague has many original post-war 'affidavits', or sworn statements, the Tribunal Commission transcripts, and much valuable defense material.

They have the 'human soap', which has never been tested, and the 'original human soap recipe' (Document USSR-196), which is a forgery; but apparently no original wartime German documents.

The Hague has negative photostats of these documents, on extremely brittle paper which has been stapled. To photocopy the photostats, the staples are removed. When they are re-stapled more holes are made. Most of these documents have not been photocopied very often, and officials at the Hague say it is very unusual for anyone to ask to see them.

The National Archives in Washington (see Telford Taylor's Use of Captured German and Related Documents, A National Archive Conference) claim that the original documents are in The Hague. The Hague claims the original documents are in the National Archives.

The Stadtarchiv Nürnberg and the Bundesarchiv Koblenz also have no original documents, and both say the original documents are in Washington.

Since the originals are, in most cases, 'copies', there is often no proof that the documents in question ever existed.

http://www.cwporter.com/document.htm



I'm assuming their authenticity couldn't be challenged on a forensic basis because if forged they would have been forged more or less contemporary to the events.
If forensics could in fact, determine whether a document dates from 1945 or 1946 as opposed to 1942 or 1943 it would be of no consequence because forensic testing of these documents isn't going to be permitted.
We don't see any use of forensics that I know of, it is as if there is a policy to ignore the existence of forensic science.


Nothing easier than forging documents when you've captured your enemies' typewriters, letterhead papers, seals, etc.
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: How many Jews were killed?

Postby cold beer » 6 years 3 months ago (Sat May 31, 2014 7:08 pm)

hermod wrote:Nothing easier than forging documents when you've captured your enemies' typewriters, letterhead papers, seals, etc.

What I meant by originals is the original documents they made reference to at the trials, forgeries or otherwise.
It would have been all to easy for them to produce a credible looking forgery, so I'm failing to see the importance of having those documents available for examination, which they would never allow to begin with.
As you have said yourself, allies were in possession of authentic stamps, letterheads and typewriters etc

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Re: How many Jews were killed?

Postby hermod » 6 years 3 months ago (Sat May 31, 2014 8:00 pm)

cold beer wrote:
hermod wrote:Nothing easier than forging documents when you've captured your enemies' typewriters, letterhead papers, seals, etc.

What I meant by originals is the original documents they made reference to at the trials, forgeries or otherwise.
It would have been all to easy for them to produce a credible looking forgery, so I'm failing to see the importance of having those documents available for examination, which they would never allow to begin with.
As you have said yourself, allies were in possession of authentic stamps, letterheads and typewriters etc


True. Examining credible looking forgeries would have been of little help, or of no help at all. But the absence of originals, whether credible looking forgeries or genuine originals, speaks volumes. Looks like what forgers covering their tracks would do. Honest people having nothing to hide would have welcomed the preservation of as many originals as possible.

To me, it seems that forgeries are easier to detect in 'originals' (even if they look credible) than in copies. If you make, let's say, a fake diploma, I think that it will be easier to see it's a fake diploma with the 'original' in your hands than with a photocopy of it. Probably even truer with a negative photocopy of it. Even worse with a translation of such a copy.

It is important to obtain the German volumes and read the Judgement in volume XXII in German. Bad German, mistranslations, etc., written by Americans have been corrected with footnotes added. Mistakes of this kind may be taken as proof of forgeries. Frequent footnotes throughout these volumes alert the reader to mistranslations, missing documents and falsified copies. At XX 205 of the German volumes for example it candidly states that ‘This phrase does not appear in the original document.’ Generally, the German IMT volumes are preferable to the American ones.

http://www.heretical.com/porter/ngan.html
"But, however the world pretends to divide itself, there are ony two divisions in the world to-day - human beings and Germans. – Rudyard Kipling, The Morning Post (London), June 22, 1915

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Re: How many Jews were killed?

Postby Landulf » 6 years 3 months ago (Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:08 pm)

Are there any sources for the German governments statement of 4,3 mil. claims to get paid????


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