The Einsatzgruppen

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M.Alinsky
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The Einsatzgruppen

Postby M.Alinsky » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu May 29, 2003 6:55 pm)

I have a question concerning the Jews killed in the anti-partisan campaign on the Eastern Front.

Were the Jews shot by the Einsatzgruppen eliminated simply because they were Jews or because a high proportion of the komissars and partisans happened to be Jews?

This is my first post here, so I apologize if I am committing a faux pas by discussing a subject not related to the alleged gassings. I realize this forum is for discussing the veracity of "the Holocaust." I'm already convinced that the gas chambers were a hoax, but I want to know more about the alleged non-KZ atrocities.

By the way, hello to Scott, who I know from Wendel's Third Reich forum, which I am banned from.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu May 29, 2003 7:26 pm)

Welcome.
The Einsatzgruppen were formed to fight Partisan irregular forces (today called 'terrorists/guerillas'). Jews comprised a high percentage of these non-uniformed combatants (illegal under international law). There were were, ofcourse, deaths on both sides in these clashes.

The standard storyline is that up to 2,000,000 Jews were killed by the Einsatzgruppen, that is an absurd and unsupportable assertion. The alleged enormous mass graves said to have been filled with Jews via Einsatzgruppen shootings are nowhere to be found....Babi Yar for example.
see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... 9a71da2cf2

Undoubtedly there were atrocities...on both sides, as in all wars; but the standard 'holocau$t' Industry allegations about the Einsatzgruppen are simply more lies which they cannot backup with verifiable information or forensic science.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu May 29, 2003 7:44 pm)

In addition:

This piece of paper is pushed off as 'evidence', but upon inspection we see that it is nothing more that a piece of paper. It's a crude fake attempting to claim that 363,211 Russian Jews had been executed.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Meldung291242.html
and
http://vho.org/VffG/1999/2/Image24.jpg

- no official stationary
- no signatures
- initials that could be easily added
- no indication of typist...standard procedure
- no forensic/physical confirmation via mass graves for numbers given
- could have been typed by anyone
- completely unverifiable

Here we have an alleged 'document' that was allegedly given to Hitler; that's Hitler for godssake, but yet it lacks any indentifying traits. It is casually typed on an old German typewriter of which thousands existed, and many still do. This thing was probably typed in New York, not on the Eastern Front. There is absolutely nothing to validate this obvious forgery, it's laughable.

Einsatzgruppen shootings were said to have been in centralized places (as per "eyewitnesses"). So, as Tom Moran would say...2 guys with shovels could settle the matter nicely, but yet we have no such physical evidence. Evidence, which if shown to be there would certainly aid the holocau$t hucksters. They don't dare try, they know there's nothing at those alleged sites.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby TMoran » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu May 29, 2003 10:53 pm)

Hannover recapped:
The standard storyline is that up to 2,000,000 Jews were killed by the Einsatzgruppen, ...


========================================

How many incidents did it take to kill 2,000,000 Jews by mass execution?

Was it one thousand incidents to kill 2,000 each time?

Two thousand incidents killing 1,000 each time?

Was it 10,000 incidents to kill say 200 each time?

Though there may be tales like the one for Babi Yar where it's said some 30,000 to 200,000 Jews were mass exterminated there would still be some 1,500,000 Jews killed and no accounting for it.

As usual, the Holocaust story raises more questions about what isn't said than what is.

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 30, 2003 2:44 am)

Hannover wrote:Welcome.
The Einsatzgruppen were formed to fight Partisan irregular forces (today called 'terrorists/guerillas').


where do you know?


Jews comprised a high percentage of these non-uniformed

i would be interest in the evidence of this claim.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 30, 2003 6:02 am)

Germania wrote:
Hannover wrote:Jews comprised a high percentage of these non-uniformed

i would be interest in the evidence of this claim.


See Solomon Schwarz “The Jews in the Soviet Union” and Tennenbaum “Underground, the story of a people”.
:D

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Postby Germania » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 30, 2003 7:16 am)

Sailor wrote:
Germania wrote:
Hannover wrote:Jews comprised a high percentage of these non-uniformed

i would be interest in the evidence of this claim.


See Solomon Schwarz “The Jews in the Soviet Union” and Tennenbaum “Underground, the story of a people”.
:D


no 'see' but please post the prove here.for all we know schwarz and tannenbaum could have made it up.
Last edited by Germania on Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri May 30, 2003 8:57 am)

Germania wrote:no 'see' but please post the prove here.for all we know schwarz and tannenbaum could have made it up.


They could have. Jews have the tendency to exaggerate, as you may know. The books are available on the second hand market. Check it out yourself. You asked where to find the evidence and I told you. You will have to take it from there.
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Re: The Einsatzgruppen

Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jun 08, 2003 3:38 pm)

M.Alinsky wrote:I have a question concerning the Jews killed in the anti-partisan campaign on the Eastern Front.

Were the Jews shot by the Einsatzgruppen eliminated simply because they were Jews or because a high proportion of the komissars and partisans happened to be Jews?

I found this piece of information which may be helpful:

Despite Ohlendorf's assertion that there existed a "Führer order" to exterminate all the Jews in the occupied Soviet territories, no reliable evidence has come to light to corroborate this claim. Moreover, as we shall see below, many scholars, including Raul Hilberg, no longer believe such an order existed. The OKW and OKH orders and directives mentioned above contain no references to a policy or programme of exterminating the Jewish populations of these territories, and neither do any of the other OKW, OKH, or RSHA orders from the period. Even the well-known "Kommissarbefehl" ("commissar order") of June 6, 1941, which explicitly orders the murder of all political commissars attached to the units of the Red Army, makes no mention of Jews being killed. [165] Jews were mentioned in an Armeeoberkommando directive of June 4, 1941, entitled "Richtlinien für das Verhalten der Truppe in Rußland" ("Guidelines for the Conduct of the Troops in Russia"). "Bolshevism," states this document, "is the mortal enemy of the National Socialist German people. Germany's struggle is directed against this destructive ideology and its carriers." The document then lists several of these "carriers": "Bolshevik agitators, guerrillas, saboteurs, Jews" ("bolschewistische, Hetzer, Freischärler, Saboteure, Juden"). It states that "ruthless and energetic action" is needed against them. [166] This document - issued to the Wehrmacht, not even to the Einsatzgruppen - mentions that Jewish Bolsheviks, along with other Bolshevik activists and terrorists, were to be executed. Yet it does not necessarily follow that all Jews in these territories, several million in all, were to be executed as Bolsheviks by the Wehrmacht. This conclusion is strengthened by the contents of an order dated July 2, 1941, issued by Heydrich himself to the Höhere SS und Polizeiführer in the occupied Soviet territories. Heydrich repeated to them in summary form the instructions he had already issued directly to the Einsatzgruppen. The relevant passage of this document, which only surfaced in the 1960s although its authenticity has since been verified by specialists in the field, states:

EXECUTIONS.
The following will be executed:
Functionaries of the Comintern (most of who are simply professional Communist politicians).
Functionaries of higher and medium rank and "radicals" in the Party, the Central Committee, and the regional and district committees.
Commissars of the People. Jews in the Service of the Party and the State. Other radical elements (saboteurs, propagandists, snipers, assassins, agitators, etc.)...
No actions should be taken to interfere with any activities that may be started by anti-Communist or anti-Jewish elements in the newly occupied territories. Rather, these are to be secretly encouraged. Nonetheless, all care must be taken to ensure that those who get involved in these local "self defence" activities are not able to claim later that they were merely following instructions or had been promised political protection.

This document certainly lends itself to the argument that the Einsatzgruppen were not ordered to exterminate all the Jews of occupied Soviet territories. Heydrich's order, which we now have a copy of, is irreconcilable with the "Führer order" Ohlendorf claimed to have received but for which we have no real evidence. Heydrich did not instruct the Einsatzgruppen to kill all Jews. He only instructed them to kill, along with various categories of non-Jews, Jews in the service of the Party and the State ("Juden in Partei- und Staatsstellungen"). Clearly Jews accused of being "saboteurs, propagandists, snipers, assassins, agitators, etc." would also be executed, and probably on no other evidence than mere suspicion. As this document and Keitel's directive of March 13, 1941 reveal, the Einsatzgruppen were principally used for the purposes of destroying Bolshevism, countering espionage and partisan activity, and establishing rudimentary law and order in one of the bloodiest war zones in history. In the furious struggle between the two competing ideologies, National Socialism and Bolshevism, all persons considered politically dangerous or troublesome were to be annihilated. "Preemptive guerrilla warfare" is one phrase that has been used to describe these actions. Of course, because Nazis tended to believe that Bolshevism sprung from the Jewish race anyway, Jewish communities, towns and ghettos would have been the main 'hunting grounds' of the Einsatzgruppen.

[166] Document No. 11 in Anatomie des SS-Staates, Band II, p. 223. In this anti-Revisionist publication, The Holocaust and the Neo-Nazi Mythomania, the word "Jews" in this document has been changed so that it now reads "the Jews" [p. 48]. This makes the document appear to be a directive against all Jews, as opposed to just Jewish Bolsheviks. Cf. Keitel's similarly-worded directive of September 12, 1941: "Juden in den besetzten Ostgebieten"; Document No. 27, in Anatomie des SS-Staates, Band II, p. 250. Again, the context is the ideological struggle against Bolshevism and not the racial struggle against the Jews.


The referenced book Anatomie des SS-Staates" in tow volumes costs about $15 used.
Another good reference book about the Einsatzgruppen is by Dr. H. Krausnick and H. Wilhelm Die Truppe des Weltanschauungskrieges. Die Einsatzgruppen der Sicherheitspolizei und des SD 1938-1942
:D
fge

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Jun 08, 2003 4:58 pm)

Interesting post. I would be curious to see the original document for a side-by-side comparison with this English 'translation'. As revisionist as it is, I would not be surprised to see that embellishments were added in the translation to make it seem more incriminating...especially:
"No actions should be taken to interfere with any activities that may be started by anti-Communist or anti-Jewish elements in the newly occupied territories. Rather, these are to be secretly encouraged. Nonetheless, all care must be taken to ensure that those who get involved in these local "self defence" activities...."


Nonetheless, the text clearly does not support the standard storyline about the activities of the Einsatzgruppen. The mention of killing Bolshevik functionaries (Jew or non-Jew...an important point) is no different than that of the Allied policies of shooting SS men out of hand.

As Churchill once said, 'it appears we killed the wrong pig'.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby 1/2 Believer » 1 decade 6 years ago (Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:30 pm)

TMoran wrote:Hannover recapped:
The standard storyline is that up to 2,000,000 Jews were killed by the Einsatzgruppen, ...

How many incidents did it take to kill 2,000,000 Jews by mass execution?




The 2,000,000 murdered number may be exagerrated. Lets say 1-1.5 million is more accurate.

This total would include all murders commited by Eintzgruppen AND 1. directed and undirected pogroms by locals
2. murders by indigenous Lithuanian, Latvian and Ukrainian Para military police units.
3. murders by Romanian and possibly Hungarian units in Bressarabia Bukovina and Odessa

Verifiable evidence states that a very large number of people can be murdered in both a few directed actions (Katyn Forest) and hundreds of smaller actions (Rwanda). Thus the answer to numbers of killing incidents is probably dozens of large scale killings, hundreds of medium and thousands of small ones.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:50 am)

Then where's the physical evidence? The sites are said to be known, and said to have been witnessed; but no mass graves to support the assertions. Babi Yar is a great example of fraud in this regard. Please present your verifiable physical evidence, if you have any.

- Katyn was minor compared to the absurd allegations against the Einsatzgruppen that rise to 2,000,000...and still at Katyn there was a completely verifiable forensic study and excavation done by the Germans with bodies & physical evidence aplenty that clearly pointed the finger at the Communists.....not the Germans.
Supposed German guilt was however accepted at the Nuremberg show trials years later, so much for that farce.

- Rwanda left bodies all over the place.

So where's your physical evidence?

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Postby 1/2 Believer » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:44 am)

Hannover,

Yes I am aware that Katyn was done by the communists. Rwandan proof is also sparse (by your standards).

There have been no mass excavations and relativley few photographs of bodies. Yet you seem to accept Rwanda. Why not Eintzgruppen murders?

Another point... Direct and overwhelming evidence of Soviet atrocities against Germans before and during deportations from Eastern Germany is also sparse. Where are the bodies?

Do you accept that large scale atrocities occured on these occasions? If so, were the victims "werewolf resistors"

Atrocities occured in both areas. Eintzgruppen killings are real, brutal and very very large scale. Even your fellow revisionists concede some of this

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:20 am)

Au contraire, I do not accept all that is alleged about Rwanda and I do not know much about it, I'm not really interested; but I did see pictures of lots of bodies attributed to the alleged tribal feuds in Rwanda...but why are you changing the subject?

To my knowledge there have in fact been many, many mass graves found that are attributed to the Communists in WWII, see 'Stalin's War of Extermination' by Joachim Hoffmann, for specific references. But yet there's nothing, zippo, zilch that supports the allegations of the 'holocau$t'. Why?

Again you try to change the subject. Why?

The Einsatzgruppen did shoot non-uniformed combatants captives (aka: terrorists, guerillas, partisans) who, under international law were subject to execution for their activities. No doubt, I suspect there were some retalliatory atrocities, but atrocities occurred on all sides in that war...and in every war. I would be surprised that atrocities didn't occur...ugly, but true. The German actions were minor in comparison to the Allies.

The numbers absurdly alleged of the Einsatzgruppen cannot be supported by verifiable evidence...otherwise you would give this evidence to me, you cannot....even when I ask for it.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 10:35 am)

1/2 Believer wrote:Hannover,

Yes I am aware that Katyn was done by the communists. Rwandan proof is also sparse (by your standards).

There have been no mass excavations and relativley few photographs of bodies. Yet you seem to accept Rwanda. Why not Eintzgruppen murders?

Another point... Direct and overwhelming evidence of Soviet atrocities against Germans before and during deportations from Eastern Germany is also sparse. Where are the bodies?

Do you accept that large scale atrocities occured on these occasions? If so, were the victims "werewolf resistors"

Atrocities occured in both areas. Eintzgruppen killings are real, brutal and very very large scale. Even your fellow revisionists concede some of this

The Einsatzgruppen were involved in a brutal partisan war first.

But what Holocausters are trying to tell us is, that the main job of the Einsatzgruppen was to exterminate all Jews they could lay their hands on in the Soviet Union.

And this is what revisionists dispute.

From an order dated July 2, 1941, issued by Heydrich himself to the Höhere SS und Polizeiführer in the occupied Soviet territories, he repeated to them in summary form the instructions he had already issued directly to the Einsatzgruppen. The relevant passage of this document, which only surfaced in the 1960s although its authenticity has since been verified by specialists in the field, states:

EXECUTIONS.
The following will be executed:
Functionaries of the Comintern (most of who are simply professional Communist politicians).
Functionaries of higher and medium rank and "radicals" in the Party, the Central Committee, and the regional and district committees.
Commissars of the People. Jews in the Service of the Party and the State. Other radical elements (saboteurs, propagandists, snipers, assassins, agitators, etc.)...
No actions should be taken to interfere with any activities that may be started by anti-Communist or anti-Jewish elements in the newly occupied territories. Rather, these are to be secretly encouraged. Nonetheless, all care must be taken to ensure that those who get involved in these local "self defence" activities are not able to claim later that they were merely following instructions or had been promised political protection.


This document certainly lends itself to the argument that the Einsatzgruppen were not ordered to exterminate all the Jews of occupied Soviet territories. Heydrich's order is irreconcilable with the "Führer order" Ohlendorf claimed to have received but for which we have no real evidence.

Heydrich did not instruct the Einsatzgruppen to kill all Jews. He only instructed them to kill, along with various categories of non-Jews, Jews in the service of the Party and the State ("Juden in Partei- und Staatsstellungen"). Clearly Jews accused of being "saboteurs, propagandists, snipers, assassins, agitators, etc." would also be executed, and probably on no other evidence than mere suspicion.

As this document and Keitel's directive of March 13, 1941 reveal, the Einsatzgruppen were principally used for the purposes of destroying Bolshevism, countering espionage and partisan activity, and establishing rudimentary law and order in one of the bloodiest war zones in history.

In the furious struggle between the two competing ideologies, National Socialism and Bolshevism, all persons considered politically dangerous or troublesome were to be annihilated. "Preemptive guerrilla warfare" is one phrase that has been used to describe these actions

Another point... Direct and overwhelming evidence of Soviet atrocities against Germans before and during deportations from Eastern Germany is also sparse. Where are the bodies?

This is food for thought.

:D
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