Bogus alleged 'conversation' about Babi Yar

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Bogus alleged 'conversation' about Babi Yar

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Jun 06, 2003 12:08 pm)

Here we have another alleged 'translation' of conversations allegedly overheard and recorded by the British, take note the original tapes are nowhere to be found.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/interrogat ... RANSLATION .

This is howling of fraud, 'translation' said:
Elfeldt:
When we were in the Kiev district, my CO of signals (?) came back quite horrified ..... spoken ..... it was an engineer Bataillonskommandeur -- and this engineer Bataillon had the task of blowing up that ..... in which were those 32,000 Jews including women and children.


Problem:

- The officer referred to is curiously not given "(?)".....convenient.

- The number alleged "32,000" is odd since the numbers thrown around at that time were ca. 200,000. The 32,000 stated by Elfeldt, as far I can tell, was a later revision which Elfeldt could not have been aware of at the time of the alleged conversation.

- Aerial photos of Babi Yar at the alleged time of the alleged event do not show any such massive project underway as alleged....enormous numbers allegedly murdered, allegedly exhumed from an alleged huge pit, then an alleged enormous open air cremation of all corpses.

See my post on another of these alleged recorded conversations..'The bogus Bruns document':

http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... 97b0206e25

Hannover


If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Oct 15, 2003 12:05 am)

It looks like David Irving continues to play dumb when it comes to these bogus 'recorded conversations'.
Here is a letter he received on this 'conversation', he fails to address the author's questions.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/interrogat ... GG221.html

TRANSLATION
Elfeldt: When we were in the Kiev district, my CO of signals (?) came back quite horrified ..... spoken ..... it was an engineer Bataillonskommandeur -- and this engineer Bataillon had the task of blowing up that ..... in which were those 32,000 Jews including women
and children.

Heim: Even if the figures are not correct, I mean, those are things which can absolutely be characterised as criminal, or even as completely crazy and mad.

Elfeldt: In just the same way as I have obligations towards my family and my nation, so have we of curse a nation, certain rules which we must observe towards the rest of humanity, there's no doubt at all about that. I can't behave like wild beast.


response:
Dear Mr Irving,

I regularly read the letters section of your website and they took me
to the pages where the conversations of German Officers were supposedly
secretly taped. Reading these conversations I noticed that many of these Officers were repeating 'Hear-say' situations, for example Lieutenant-Generals Elfeldt & Heim discussing the bulldozing of the ravine at Babi Yar. Neither officer had been present.

You finish the page by saying, 'In Sept 1941 the Germans or their collaborators are said to have killed over 33,000 people etc etc.' BUT I read on another revisionist website (VHO I believe) that no bodies
have ever been found at Babi Yar Ravine. What is true here?

Secondly who is to say that IF bodies were found at Babi Yar, just as they were found at Katyn & murdered previously by the Bolsheviks, that the Wehrmacht Sappers were not called in just to bury them. After all British Troops bulldozed bodies into pits in Bergen-Belsen did they not? This act in itself is no proof that the bulldozer drivers were the perpetrators.

The story about driving 100s of Russian Prisoners into caves in Khala,
gassing them and then blowing the caves up doesnt ring true either. The Russians because they 'noticed' something, 'broke away' and then returned, came back wringing their hands? If they had broken away, why
not just disappear into the woodwork, after all liberation was only days away?

Lastly, I have been a professional Film cameramann for many years and
one of the biggest challenges making movies is getting the sound right, thats why most sound is dubbed in afterwards. Hiding microphones in shrubs and trees sounds pretty neat but I dont buy it.....If it worked Filmmakers would use it, but we don't...If two or more People are walking / talking we have mikes following them all the time, even with modern professional mikes a turn of the head can lose the audio. Two men walking and having a private, half-whispered conversation needs a
dedicated on-the-job-sound-man.

Special mikes that pick up sound over long distances are available BUT if the subjects are moving these mikes usually need to be hand aimed, AND you cannot have them just hanging in trees. Where were the cables? And for every mike you'd need a tape-deck running constantly. Rain or Wind landing on a sound sensitive microphone and you can forget picking up conversations... Are you sure these conversations were not pre-recorded by Sefton Delmer because neither the 'mikes-in-the-trees' bit sounds real, nor do the conversations?

Sincerely, William Amner

*********************************************

IRVINGS ANSWER TO ME:

The conversations are genuine, no doubt whatever. Some words are phonetically wrong, a very tiny number. Enormous pains were taken to
get the transcripts correct. I agree it is hearsay, and I make that plain.

David Irving (currently writing in Key West, Florida)

**************************************************
MY ANSWER TO IRVING:

Thema: Re: Babi Yar still no bodies?
Datum: 25.07.03
An: [email protected]


Dear Mr Irving,
Thank you for answering my email and sorry for taking up your time
but :

a) You didnt answer my question as to whether bodies have subsequently been found in Babi Yar ? if Babi Yar turns out to be another
Treblinka (where no bodies were ever found) then the whole conversation below is an obvious fake....AND puts other conversations at that facility in
question.

TRANSLATION
Elfeldt: When we were in the Kiev district, my CO of signals (?) came back quite horrified ..... spoken ..... it was an engineer Bataillonskommandeur -- and this engineer Bataillon had the task of blowing up that ..... in which were those 32,000 Jews including women
and children.

Heim: Even if the figures are not correct, I mean, those are things which can absolutely be characterised as criminal, or even as completely crazy and mad.

Elfeldt:
In just the same way as I have obligations towards my family and my nation, so have we of curse a nation, certain rules which we must observe towards the rest of humanity, there's no doubt at all about that. I can't behave like wild beast.

b) The whole conversation is that of a Sundayschool play trying to impress on us the difference between good & evil., but not of two German Generals in 1944 discussing an event from 1941, especially as Germany was getting the tripe bombed out of it in 1944 and the 'certain rules we must observe towards the rest of humanity' (Elfeldt) were certainly NOT being observed by the Allied Airforces over Germany. WHY would Heim say 'even if the figures are not correct' and not something like...Mein Gott , what in hell happened there?

In 1944 the Germans knew about the massacres in Katyn, Bromberg, Lemberg, etc etc their own major losses around Moscow, Leningrad etc, the Partisan problems in the Ukraine and Baltic states. I have an older friend who was in the SS Div Handschar and he tells stories of how men from his unit, captured by Partisans had their hands tied behind their backs, butchers hooks put through their lower jaw and they were hung, alive & kicking in trees. How Russian / Jewish Partisans would grill live prisoners over fires like we grill pigs, who dug up the bodies of SS men killed in combat and cut the bodies to bits.... and here we have two Generals who MUST know these things also, getting sentimental about an event that supposedly happened years before.
I DONT BUY IT!

Those conversations do not sound 'echt'. I have since given the German scripts to two German friends to read and they just laughed and said....Unmöglich, Untypisch!! no need to translate that for you. Once again I must stress how primitive sound equipment was in 1944-45. The British first captured German AEG tapedecks towards the middle of the war, before that they had huge unwieldy metal decks etc as big as bathtubs...the sound quality was not good...getting multiple microphones plugged in was an act of God. I think British intelligence is carrying on its long history of treating us like mushrooms (keeping us in the dark and feeding us manure)

Sincerely, W. Amner


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Re: Bogus alleged 'conversation' about Babi Yar

Postby Germania » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:12 am)

Hannover wrote:- The number alleged "32,000" is odd since the numbers thrown around at that time were ca. 200,000. The 32,000 stated by Elfeldt, as far I can tell, was a later revision which Elfeldt could not have been aware of at the time of the alleged conversation.


the ss sources were,since the killing happend,always around 30000. if,as you say,the number thrown around at that time were ca. 200000,this only proves elfeldt was relying on ss sources.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Oct 16, 2003 1:53 am)

Germania said:
the ss sources were,since the killing happend,always around 30000. if,as you say,the number thrown around at that time were ca. 200000,this only proves elfeldt was relying on ss sources.


OH really? Show me these 'SS sources'.

While you're at it show me your evidence that the SS killed 30,000 at Babi Yar....yes I want to see human remains and physical forensic evidence.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 3 years ago (Mon Oct 27, 2003 11:48 am)

Hannover wrote: OH really? Show me these 'SS sources'.

There was no SS source for this.

But:
On the evening of February 28, 1944, Radio Moscow reported about German atrocities in Kiev. They came up with this:
"More than 195,000 Soviet citizens were tortured to death, shot, or poisoned in murder vans by the Germans during the occupation of Kiev."

The alleged massacres, mass graves and cremations in Babi Jar were to my knowledge never criminally investigated and the site of the graves was never archeologically checked out.

And when John Ball reviewed a series of needle sharp air photos taken by the German Luftwaffe between 1939 and Sept. 26, 1943 of the Babi Jar area and found, that there was never a noticable change of the topography in this ravine, nor of the vegatation, there were no access routes for people or fuel transports, no fuel storage, no excavations, no open fires or smoke, Ball concluded that no mass graves could have been at this location.

This not only puts serious doubts about the alleged massacres in Babi Jar, but also raises serious questions about the credibility of the “oh so holy” Einsatzgruppen reports, which form a basic “proof” for established and normative historians like Christian Brown and Peter Longerich in their “expert” reports for the Irving trial about German atrocities committed in the Soviet Union.

fge

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Oct 28, 2003 7:30 pm)

Sailor wrote:
Hannover wrote: OH really? Show me these 'SS sources'.

There was no SS source for this.


Mr. Sailor, you must know of OSR 101:

Sonderkommando 4a in collaboration with Einsatzgruppe HQ and two Kommandos of police regiment South, executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev on September 29 and 30, 1941.


http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/osr101.html

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Oct 28, 2003 7:44 pm)

OPERATIONAL SITUATION REPORT USSR No.101


Shakey indeed. Is the German original available for viewing?

I thought not.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 3 years ago (Tue Oct 28, 2003 8:17 pm)

Hebden wrote:Mr. Sailor, you must know of OSR 101

Of course I am aware of ER# 101. I was comenting about the 200,000 number and the EM#101 mentions 33,000.

Talking about Babi Jar and the Einsatzgruppen Reports:

Report #97 mentions the planned execution of 20 Jews in response to the destruction of the whole inner city of Kiev by some partisans.

Reports #98, #99 and #100 which cover the very days of the alleged massacre don’t mention a word of these shootings.

Doesn’t that strike as rather strange?

And the only copy of EM# 101 I am familiar with is in English and is the one published in the book “The Einsatzgruppen Reports” by Arad. Not even Krausnick/Wilhelm show a copy of #101 in their Einsatzgruppen book. They mention the 33,000 number in a foot note.



Apparently no one ever took the trouble of confirming the various allegations and witness statements about the Babi Jar massacres by means of detailed forensic investigations. The Soviets used the site as a garbage dump and for trash incineration after the war.

And why do the needle-sharp air photos taken by the Luftwaffe and analyzed by John Ball do not even show the slightest trace of any disturbances of the ground?

fge

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:20 am)

Sailor wrote:
Hebden wrote:Mr. Sailor, you must know of OSR 101

Of course I am aware of ER# 101. I was comenting about the 200,000 number and the EM#101 mentions 33,000.


It's been a bad week as far as comprehension is concerned.

Mr. Germania wrote:

the ss sources were,since the killing happend,always around 30000. if,as you say,the number thrown around at that time were ca. 200000,this only proves elfeldt was relying on ss sources.


You wrote:

There was no SS source for this.


We wrote:

Mr. Sailor, you must know of OSR 101.


Alles klar?

Talking about Babi Jar and the Einsatzgruppen Reports:

Report #97 mentions the planned execution of 20 Jews in response to the destruction of the whole inner city of Kiev by some partisans.


We were not aware of this. Do you have the text of this report?

Reports #98, #99 and #100 which cover the very days of the alleged massacre don’t mention a word of these shootings.

Doesn’t that strike as rather strange?


It may do. But our understanding is that these reports are not exhaustive day to day compilations.

And why do the needle-sharp air photos taken by the Luftwaffe and analyzed by John Ball do not even show the slightest trace of any disturbances of the ground?
fge


We would like to see a second opinion on the work of Mr. Ball.

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Postby Malle » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:10 am)

We would like to see a second opinion on the work of Mr. Ball.


Also would I, but so far hasn't the holo-hoaxers found an so called 'air photo expert' with all the 'correct credentials' (their expression) that is willing to stick her/his neck out in this matter.

I haven't seen anybody technically refuting Ball's interpretations of Babi Yar. Maybe I missed something?

The only claim I have seen so far is from Michael Shermer in his book Why People Believe Weird Things, where he claims that an expert from Caltech/NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Dr. Nevin Bryant refute John Ball's theory concerning CIA.

Link: http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/john-ball/

The claim from Michael Shermer is debunked right here at this forum by Tom Moran.

Link: http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t= ... ght=bryant

The holo-hoaxers are more interested in shooting the messenger boy instead of refuting the evidence. We see that over and over again.

Conclusions: 2 + 2 = 4 is correct even if it's John Ball, Fred Leucther or some other revisionist says it.
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Oct 29, 2003 10:42 am)

'Photo interpreter' not required.

Babi Yar photo, 9/26/43, at time of alleged mass exhumation/cremation actions....note the detail as a car on the road at bottom of photo is easily seen:

Image

So, where's what is alleged? ....
where is the:
smoke, fuel trucks, troops, massive pit from where corpses allegedly came, marks where trucks entered area, corpses? Nothing whatsoever.

Perhaps the photo is 'antisemitic'.

for more see:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=41

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Oct 29, 2003 1:41 pm)

'Photo interpreter' not required.


That's what I think ! Why do they treat people like seven year-old's ?

Any fool can see that there is nothing there, and never was.

Just trying the old trick of turning something so simple and obvious, into
Something complicated.

Look at the photo...There is nothing there !

Don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:53 pm)

Hannover wrote:'Photo interpreter' not required.

Babi Yar photo, 9/26/43, at time of alleged mass exhumation/cremation actions....note the detail as a car on the road at bottom of photo is easily seen


Perhaps everything is set out in Mr. Ball's 1992 Air-Photo Evidence report, but we'd like more information on where to find these negatives and on how he determined he had the correct location.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Wed Oct 29, 2003 7:59 pm)

The photo is available from the U.S. National Archives and is listed as: GX 3938 SG, exposure 105.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:30 am)

Hannover wrote:The photo is available from the U.S. National Archives and is listed as: GX 3938 SG, exposure 105.

- Hannover


Where is Mr. Ball available?


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