writer Justin Raimondo caves in, uses dumb strawmen

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Hannover
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writer Justin Raimondo caves in, uses dumb strawmen

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:11 am)

Justin Raimondo of www.antiwar.com is beginning to figure things out about the current crisis the US finds itself in, he realizes that the vile little hate-state of Israel calls the shots, he has written extensively on the 'tail that wags the dog', check him out here:
http://antiwar.com/archives.php?author= ... 20Raimondo
Not bad, shows some guts.

Perhaps he's getting pressure now to jump through hoops, but here's what he recently said about Revisionists:
The Israeli response has been outright denial. This denialism is expressed in terms that recall the fanatic illogic of the Holocaust-deniers, who focus on weird out-of-context details (there were no gas chambers, and the gas couldn't have killed anyway, besides which the order for the Holocaust was never signed by Hitler, etc., ad nauseam). They exclude all evidence – like, say, those piles of bodies we've all seen, and the testimony of the survivors – that doesn't fit their denialist paradigm, and deride the killing of millions as a "Holo-hoax." The parallels with Israeli denialism in the face of the IDF's murderous brutality are eerily similar, as this Human Rights Watch analysis shows: ...

http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=9224

The poor goy, has been played like a drum.

In what's probably a futile effort, I have challenged him to debate:
Justin:

I admire and respect the work you do at antiwar.com, I read
you regularily. However, I feel you're a better man than the
one who ignorantly said:

"The Israeli response has been outright denial. This
denialism is expressed in terms that recall the fanatic
illogic of the Holocaust-deniers, who focus on weird
out-of-context details (there were no gas chambers, and the
gas couldn't have killed anyway, besides which the order for
the Holocaust was never signed by Hitler, etc., ad nauseam).
They exclude all evidence – like, say, those piles of
bodies we've all seen, and the testimony of the survivors
– that doesn't fit their denialist paradigm, and deride
the killing of millions as a "Holo-hoax."

Oh please, you have no idea what you're talking about. I'll
assume it is simple ignorance, as that is not what
Revisionists really say and nothing is said 'out of
context'. For starters:

- The gas chambers that are alleged (i.e.:
Auschwitz/Birkenau) are scientifically impossible as
claimed. In fact the tales are laughable. Do you deny laws
of science?
See The Rudolf Report: http://germarrudolf.com/work/trr/
Germar Rudolf is now in a German jail because of this
scientific work.

- A claimed enormous mass grave/pit for an alleged 900,000
Jews at Treblinka (9 x The Rose Bowl capacity, Justin) are
not there, period. Ask a True Believer to show it to you. In
fact there is not one mass grave that supports the
ridiculous 'holocaust' storyline, not one. That's curious
since there are claimed 'eyewitnesses' that could direct us
to the exact spot to dig. But nothing, nada, zilch.

- There are literally hundreds of thousands of testimonies
from claimed UFO abduction 'survivors' (they must be telling
the truth), a tad more than the so called 'holocaust
survivors/witnesses', which claim utterly preposterous and
impossible tales. And the simple fact that there are so many
claimed 'holocau$t survivors' in itself demonstrates the
lack of an extermination plan.

- No order signed by Hitler, OR anyone else. In fact, no
original documentary evidence at all supports the absurd
storyline. Got any?

- Piles of bodies? Yawn. Typhus epidemics were a bitch, they
ravaged the entire European Theater of War. Not one single
autopsy indicated death by gassing, not one. The typhus
epidemics themselves were fueled by illegal Allied attacks
upon civilian transport of medical & food supplies (check
your Chuck Yeager}. Most deaths at these camps where the
photos originated occurred AFTER the arrival of The Allies.
And your argument shoots itself in the food again by the
simple fact that Dachau & Belsen, the sources of 'the
photos', are now said, even by the mainstream 'historians',
to have had no operational, homicidal gas chambers.

- And yes the alleged '6,000,000 (an alleged grand total of
11-12,000,000) is an easily debunked lie.

Still think you know what you're talking about? Cool. Debate
informed Revisionists here:
http://forum.codoh.com/

No namecalling, no threats, no dodging, just debate, fair &
square. See the guidelines here:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=358

Ready to go, or are your strawmen all you got?
Bring it, Justin.

WMD & gas chambers are the same lie.

Regards, Hannover

see more published works here:
http://vho.org/GB/Books/HHS.html

visit The CODOH Revisionist Forum - http://www.codoh.com

I say he hasn't the backbone to debate his silly received version of judeo-supremacist history.

[email protected]

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Richard Perle » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:10 pm)

I have wanted to talk to him about that, but I couldn't find an email address. Bringing up revisionists and attacking them when he need not have mentioned them at all is a bit low unless he really believes what he was saying, which he probably does. I understand though that he couldn't openly support revisionism. He's already controversial enough, to support revisionism would probably be the end of antiwar.com.

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:20 pm)

'Richard Perle' on Justin Raimondo in the Revisionist Forum wrote:http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=3455

I have wanted to talk to him about that, but I couldn't find an email address. Bringing up revisionists and attacking them when he need not have mentioned them at all is a bit low unless he really believes what he was saying, which he probably does. I understand though that he couldn't openly support revisionism. He's already controversial enough, to support revisionism would probably be the end of antiwar.com.


[Copy sent to Justin Raimondo. I would advise readers of the Revisionist Forum to do likewise to [email protected] under the subject "The Gaza Beach Party Massacre-- Raimondo"]

I agree with what you're saying and indeed with Hannover's text on this same thread.

You can always try "backtalk", as I have in the past. Raimondo is the soul of Antiwar, a great site on many accounts. Chances are he'll read the mail directed to him, but I don't think you'll get any replies, as I certainly didn't. He is a good exemple of those folks usually able to think with their own heads to very good effect, but so thoroughly brainwashed Holocaust-wise they'll simply break down and retreat into truth denial if and when they get the real hard data on this one topic.

Intellectual integrity requires more than intelligence and morals: it requires also guts to face the inevitable loss of faith and to follow the higher calling of truth. In that sense, I think Raimondo, every bit as much as his childish and faulty "Holocaust" propaganda, is a real strawman.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:51 pm)

Welcome back ASMarques. :D

You're a good thinker and I like reading your posts.

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Postby kk » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:19 pm)

Intellectual integrity requires more than intelligence and morals: it requires also guts to face the inevitable loss of faith and to follow the higher calling of truth. In that sense, I think Raimondo, every bit as much as his childish and faulty "Holocaust" propaganda, is a real strawman.


You're most probably right.

But did you ever think that the setting is not already ripe for the whole out
revisionist ideas?
Or even that these guys are not ready for them?
They are maybe our future allies. So I think.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:57 am)

I issued my challenge to Raimondo via an email to him. Maybe that wasn't clear.

ASM said:
Intellectual integrity requires more than intelligence and morals: it requires also guts to face the inevitable loss of faith and to follow the higher calling of truth. In that sense, I think Raimondo, every bit as much as his childish and faulty "Holocaust" propaganda, is a real strawman.

Not sure how Raimondo himself is a strawman, rather than simply using them. ASM, can we get clarification on that point?

kk said:
But did you ever think that the setting is not already ripe for the whole out
revisionist ideas?
Or even that these guys are not ready for them?
They are maybe our future allies. So I think.

I don't buy that excuse. There will never be a setting or time that is convenient for an influential person to speak up, the judeo-supremacists will be sure the pressure is constant / unrelenting. Those who command media attention will simply need the "guts" to speak up, as ASM said.

As Richard Perle stated, Raimondo could have simply not taken the cheap shot that is riddled with distortions unless he actually believes his childish strawmen, or, as I mentioned, he's getting heavy pressure by judeo-supremacists to tow the line, perhaps they sense where he could go with his excellent expose' of things Zionist.

I assume our readers have read Justin Raimondo's work here:
http://antiwar.com/archives.php?author= ... 20Raimondo
Hot stuff which I'm sure has him in deep water with most Jews.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:38 am)

ASM probably meant that Raimondo doesn't have a back-bone and thus is a strawman. In other words he's using the term "strawman" differently than how it's usually used.

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Postby vincentferrer » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:41 am)

It takes a fair amount of study to read and understand how the holocaust, as presented by the promoters, is a big scam.

Even the folks who are public figures and whose job it is to promote the holocaust or defend it, have not done any real homework in terms of reading about it. I know that for a fact, because such people have admitted this to me, time and time again !

So, revisionists are dealing with people who do not know what they are talking about.



JR in all liklihood, knows next to nothing about the holocaust, and even less about revisionist facts. Conclusion, he is just lazy.

On the other hand, revisionists have devoted hundreds or thousands
of hours of study on this topic and that is why the truth of the hoax is so obvious.

Someone needs to get him some information on the hoax, and if he is interested in truth, as he claims in his writings, he will read it.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:47 am)

vincentferrer:
Conclusion, he is just lazy.

No way. If there's one thing that Raimondo is not, it's lazy. Read his work, realize how he campaigns tirelessly for antiwar.com, that he travels widely for speaking engagements, etc.

That he's in denial or gutless is more like it

- Hannover
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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:48 am)

Hannover wrote:I issued my challenge to Raimondo via an email to him. Maybe that wasn't clear.

ASM said:
Intellectual integrity requires more than intelligence and morals: it requires also guts to face the inevitable loss of faith and to follow the higher calling of truth. In that sense, I think Raimondo, every bit as much as his childish and faulty "Holocaust" propaganda, is a real strawman.

Not sure how Raimondo himself is a strawman, rather than simply using them. ASM, can we get clarification on that point?

- Hannover


I mean he sounds very honest and gutsy when dealing with Israel, Palestine and the Irak War, topics that though presenting a degree of risk, are not exactly the real taboos of our age; but he definitely sounds superficial and conformist, if not downright dishonest and evasive, when facing the greatest lie of all. He can show a lot of consistence and talk tough into the breeze, but he cannot face the "Holocaust" gale. That's what I meant by the strawman image.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:05 am)

Thanks ASM.

I'm sure that in the long run Zionists/judeo-supremacists can live with his present work as long as he tows the 'holocaust' party line. Kowtowing to the 'holocaust' is what ultimately renders the very topics he writes about fairly inconsequential. Funny how that works. For the 'holocaust' scam is what makes Zionists/judeo-supremacists immune to criticism.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:25 am)

I just wrote and sent the following e-mail to Raimondo:


Mr Raimondo,

I usually read Your comments and reflections on the current world situation at antiwar.com with delight, but Your recent comments on "Holocaust denial" saddened me and caused me to write the following reply.

You see, just like You, I once firmly believed in the established Holocaust narrative as something of an undebatable fact, and I also believed that the "Holocaust deniers" were nuts, loonies, or detestable, lying Nazi apologists - without ever having heard their arguments.

It came to me as a shock - after more or less by chance happening upon revisionist material and starting to compare it with such standard works as those by Reitlinger, Hilberg et.al. - when I found out that the foundations of the historiography concerning the fate of European Jewry during WWII - or to be more exact, the claims that millions of Jews were killed in homicidal gas chambers, and that there existed a Nazi plan for a systematic extermination of Jewry - are either very weak, or spurious, or in some cases even falsified. I also found out that most of the "deniers" are decent and intelligent people. I am no Nazi sympathizer, and my discovery that the "deniers" are probably right has not changed this. It should however be clearly pointed out that in a scholarly debate, it is not the character of the debater that matters, but the arguments he presents. It is by subjecting those arguments to scientific critique that one debates ones opponent. Mere ad hominem can never be accepted as legitimate argument in a rational debate. The character and leanings of the opponent might invite caution, but to turn this caution into ones single, definitive and decisive argument, one has already lost the argument.

I honestly believe that, as a intelligent man, You would, after reading for example the introduction to revisionist arguments written by Dipl.Chem. Germar Rudolf and entitled "Lectures on the Holocaust: Controversial Questions Cross-Examined" (which is also available for free downloading at http://vho.org/dl/ENG/loth.pdf ), if not start doubting the existence of Nazi homicidal gas chambers and the orthodox figure of 6 million murdered Jews, at least acknowledge that the "deniers" presents sound arguments, and that there is room for

As You are surely aware of, there are criminal laws established in a number of European nations that prevents any doubts regarding the established Holocaust historiography to be voiced openly, by penalty of prison or fines. In Austria, those who dares to argument against the gas chambers, the six million, or even the highly doubtful "gas chamber" displayed at the Mauthausen camp, might face up to 10 (ten) years in prison! As You also surely are aware of, the semi-revisionist David Irving recently was sentenced to a 3 year sentence by an Austrian court for voicing doubts about the gas chamber claims - seventeen years ago, before the legislature used in the sentencing had been established! In Germany, "denial" may render a prison sentence of up to 5 years per crime. Laws against "Holocaust denial" (doesn't that remind You of the label "denier of God" that used to be pinned on free thinkers in previous centuries?) are also enacted in the following nations: France, Poland, Swiss, Bulgaria, the Czech republic, Israel, Belgium and to some degree also in Spain, Australia and Canada.

The revisionist writer and publisher I mentioned above, the German chemist Germar Rudolf, was deported to Germany last year to serve 14 months in prison, and then to recieve yet another sentence for "Holocaust denial". His crime? To have carried out a technical-chemical examination of the rooms and ruins at Auschwitz I and Auschwitz-Birkenau that are alleged to have been used as homicidal gas chambers.
More on that below.

Since You have defended the right to opinion for Japanese revisionist Kobayashi Yoshinori, who disputes the orthodox historiography regarding such events as the alleged "rape of Nanking" and the origins of the Pacific War, I do not see why You should not defend the right the right to free speech for men like Rudolf, Faurisson or Zundel. I however, understand if You feel reluctance to do this, since the tabooization of all dissent toward the established Holocaust narrative is monumental and attempts to start a rational debate on the subjects are met with hate-filled invectives, defamation, personal persecution and even violence.

If You do not have time to read through Mr. Rudolfs book, I strongly urge You to take a look at a few photographs to which I will link below.

The first was taken by Allied air reconnesance in November 1944. It shows the remains of Treblinka II, a German camp located in eastern Poland that was active until late summer 1943. According to orthodox Holocaust historiography, 870 000 Jews and a few thousand gypsies were murdered at Treblinka II by the means of gas chambers utilizing the exhaust gas of a diesel engine of Soviet origin (tank or submarine). The gassing were allegedly commenced in early 1942, and then carried out until summer of 1943. It is claimed that until March 1943, the bodies - a total of 800 000 (Raul Hilberg claims 700 000) of those thus killed were dumped into a number of pits inside a small fenced in and camouflaged area measuring a few hectar ("the extermination area") that also contained two gas chamber buildings and the housing for the work command of Jewish prisoners. It is alleged that in March of 1943, Himmler ordered all the grave pits disinterred and the corpses incinerated. This incineration surprisinlgy did not involve any crematory ovens - even thought those were readily available from the SS material administration - but were carried out on two primitive "grills" measuring approximately 3x30 meter made out of rail road tracks resting on a concrete fundament. During a mere 120 days 800 000 disinterred, rotting corpses were completely incinerated on these contraptions, were most of the energy from the fires would have been radiated out into the air instead of effecting the carbonization of the human remains. 70 000 freshly killed bodies were incinerated as well during the same time. All the remaining bones were allegedly crushed using tin metal sheets, and the ashes were thrown back into the graves (even if there are claims of them having been disposed in other ways). The Nazis then completely removed all the buildings and camouflaged the site of Treblinka II before abandoning it.
Now, take a look at the photo from November 1944:

http://www.codoh.com/graphics/fndaerab2.JPEG

The correctness of the distance legend may be proven by looking to the extreme left of the photo, were rail road tracks are clearly visible.

Now look at the area to the right of the middle of the photo, below and right of the tongue of forest that is protruding from the upper half of the photo. According to most of the alleged eye-witnesses, this is where the "extermination area" containing the two gas chamber buildings and the graves of 800 000 non-cremated corpses were located.

Now, try to figure out how much space would be needed to inter 800 000 corpses. Remember that the depth of graves is limited by the ground water levels. Treblinka is located not far from a river, and the soil consists mainly of sand. You can limit yourself to a depth of 4 or 5 meters (even if 3 is more probable). Be sure to check how much volume an average human body has. Then You can proceed to calculate the area needed for 800 000 corpses. Can the remains of such a grave/s be spotted on the aerial photo linked to above? And by the way, how come that no one bothered to detect the exact location and dimension of those graves after the war was over? How come the mass grave of 870 000 people has never been proven to exist? Teeth are also hard to destroy, they could hardly have been crushed using tin metal sheets. Were are the approximately 20 million teeth from the Treblinka victims?

Instead, the area alleged to have contained the mass graves has been covered by concrete slabs and a huge monument:
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/Image170.jpg

(By the way, there is an another allied air photo of the same area that was taken siz months earlier, in May 1944 (this was still several months after the Germans had left the are). You can see it here:

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/Image179.jpg

If You compare those two photos, You will see that several of the intact buildings visible in the earlier May -44 photograph seems to have been razed during the time lapsed between May and November 1944). Who did this, and why?)

The established Treblinka narrative contains a number of highly improbable, even ridiculous, claims. If You want to read more about those, I suggest that You read "Treblinka. Extermination Camp or Transit Camp" by Jurgen Graf and Carlo Mattogno, which you can download for free at http://vho.org/dl/ENG/t.pdf

Now take a look at these two photos:

http://www.vho.org/D/rga2/Image324.jpg
http://vho.org/D/rga2/Image325.jpg

The man visible in them is the above mentioned Germar Rudolf. The buildings visible in those photos are inside and outside walls of disinfection chambers in the concentration camp Auschwitz utilizing Zyklon B (a pesticide consisting of hydrogen cyanide contained in gypsym pellets). That those buildings were used as disinfection chambers, and not as homicidal gas chambers, has never been contested by anyone.

The blu color visible in both photos is "prussian blue" or, chemically speaking, ferricferrocyanide, a highly stabile compound of hydrogencyanide and the iron that can be found in mortar, bricks &c. The use of Zyklon B in this room has resulted in prussian blue forming and penetrating through the entire wall, so that is clearly visible even on the outside wall of the building, where it has been exposed to the elements for over 50 years!

Now look at those two photos:

http://www.vho.org/D/rga2/Image315.jpg
http://vho.org/D/rga2/Image316.jpg

They show the insides of the ruins of the large room in Crematory Building II at Auschwitz Birkenau marked as a morgue on the German blueprints, but alleged to have been the infamous gas chamber where approximately 450 000 Jews were gassed to death from 1943 to 1944 (a similar number is claimed for the alleged gas chamber of the adjacent Crematory III, as well as smaller numbers for the gas chambers at Crematory IV and V and the two alleged "bunkers" to the north of the Birkenau camp - the most widely known "gas chambers", the one in the old crematorium (I) at the Auschwitz Main Camp is nowadays acknowledged to be a "recnstruction" and the figure of the alleged victims for it has been reduced). As You can see, there is not a single speck of prussian blue to be found on the walls or on the roof. Yet, it is alleged that mass gassings of human beings using large amounts of Zyklon B was carried several times a day for more than a year in this very room!

The absence of prussian blue in the walls of the gas chambers was discovered already in the 80's by Fred Leuchter. It has then been confirmed, not only by chemist Germar Rudolf (who was just to make his dissertation in chemistry at the world famous Max Planck Institute when the news of his report surfaced and he was thrown out for his heresy against sacred dogmas) but also by examinations carried out by the exterminationist side. Their attempts to explain away this startling fact is dissected in the book "Auschwitz Lies" by Germar Rudolf and Carlo Mattogno (available for free download at http://vho.org/dl/ENG/al/pdf - this book also dissects the attempts to explain away another even more startling fact - that the introduction holes for Zyklon B in the roofs of the gas chambers in Crematorium II and III, attested to by "eye witnesses", are nowhere to be found in the relatively well-preserved roof to the "gas chamber" of Crematorium II"!)

Thank You for reading this mail.
I hope that by reading the above lines - and perhaps some of the books linked to - You will understand that I and the other "Holocaust deniers" are not crazy, or undebatable liars.

Best regards,

Laurentz Dahl

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:29 am)

Hannover wrote
Kowtowing to the 'holocaust' is what ultimately renders the very topics he writes about fairly inconsequential.


That is so true! Have a conversation about the Israelis and Palestinians, about Gaza, with a random American, and the holocaust will come up in the first 5 minutes of conversation.

It's like a geometric postulate, an axiom that if considered true, equals war.

That's the concept of geometry: you start out with these "truths" and from there build lots of things.

The false truth of the holocaust equates to US military aid to Israel and all kinds of justification for the destruction of the Palestinians.

Codoh forum is the real antiwar.com in a sense.

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Postby Breker » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Jul 02, 2006 10:04 am)

Justin Raimondo is of a Libertarian persuasion. They of all people should know how strawmen are used, the public uses strawmen arguments against them endlessly. Raimondo can only be called a hypocrite.
Brecker

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Postby Hektor » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:36 am)

Brecker wrote:Justin Raimondo is of a Libertarian persuasion. They of all people should know how strawmen are used, the public uses strawmen arguments against them endlessly. Raimondo can only be called a hypocrite.
Strawmen are used but it is not the public who is using them. They are used to deceive the public.

Btw.: The libertarians are using an interesting method and strategy to spread their message. Freely downloadable video/audio-lectures and books:
http://www.mises.org/media.aspx
VHO.org does it already with the books.
As for videos someone started such a project:
http://zamphir.litek.ws/
This Mises series dealt with National Socialism and Fascism:
http://www.mises.org/media.aspx?action=category&ID=82


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