Irving's 'holocaust' lite / but what '2.4 million document'?

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Hannover
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Irving's 'holocaust' lite / but what '2.4 million document'?

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:54 pm)

David Irving's lack of knowledge of the 'holocaust' story is becoming more and more obvious.

excerpts:
He says that a document, which he is 80% sure is genuine, suggests that 2.4 million Jews were killed in Poland, but goes on to claim that the gas chamber at Auschwitz was fake.

"In my opinion now the real killing operations took place at the Reinhardt camps west of the Bug river. In the three camps here [Sobibor, Belzec, and Treblinka] Heinrich Himmler's men (mostly Ukrainian mercenaries) killed possibly as many as 2.4 million in the two years up to October 1943. There is now nothing to be seen of the Reinhardt camps, neither stick nor stone, so few tourists go there. I have visited all four sites earlier this year."

Now what 'document' is that?
And where is the proof of the "2.4 million Jews"?
Just where are the human remains?
How were they supposedly killed?
What proof of the murder method is there?

No kidding, there's 'nothing to be seen' because the stories about the Reinhardt camps are laughable, absurd, and without any supporting proofs ... just like the rest of the ridiculous tales.

Has Irving finally tossed in the towel in an attempt to play 'holocaust' lite? Does he think this stance will put him back in the good graces of judeo-supremacists?

Note that Irving has made other assertions of absurdity, see where I've demolished his 'recorded conversations' nonsense:

'on Irving's bogus 'overheard conversations'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4454

Irving's being "discredited" alright, but for completely different reasons than this article states. Read on.

- Hannover
Discredited Irving plans comeback tour

· Historian blames Himmler, but not Hitler
· Writer freed from jail says views have 'crystallised'

Matthew Taylor
Saturday September 29, 2007
http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/stor ... 42,00.html
Guardian

Ten months ago he was languishing in an Austrian jail, less than halfway through a three-year sentence with his career - and professional reputation - in tatters.

This week David Irving, the discredited British historian who was described by a high court judge as a Holocaust denier and a racist, says he is launching a comeback with a speaking tour of British cities and a series of new books. "I have kept a low profile for several months because I have had to sort out where to live and to address my financial situation," said Mr Irving, who was declared bankrupt in 2002 after an unsuccessful libel action over claims he was a Holocaust denier. "But now I am ready to start again."

Mr Irving's career has been littered with controversy, culminating with his arrest in Austria in 2005. He was sentenced to three years in jail after a judge ruled that two speeches he made in 1989, dismissing the Auschwitz gas chambers as a "fairy tale" and questioning the existence of extermination camps, breached Austrian law. His appeal was upheld, with the judge saying the crimes were a long time ago and that Mr Irving had undergone an "impeccable conversion".

However, drinking tea on the sofa of a 10-bedroom house he has begun renting near Windsor, Mr Irving says that his views on the Holocaust have crystallised rather than changed. He says that he believes the Jews were responsible for what happened to them during the second world war and that the "Jewish problem" was responsible for nearly all the wars of the past 100 years: "The Jews are the architects of their own misfortune, but that is the short version A-Z. Between A-Z there are then 24 other characters in intervening steps." Mr Irving was due to address a meeting in Coventry last Friday - although that event was disrupted by protesters - and held another meeting at his home on Saturday. He plans to speak in Halifax and Birmingham as well as at several unnamed universities.

Last night, news of his attempts to kickstart his career were met with disbelief and anger from Jewish groups and political opponents. Lord Foulkes, of the Labour Friends of Israel, said: "It is a frightening thought that he is still pursuing his agenda." Jon Benjamin, chief executive of the Board of Deputies, said Mr Irving no longer had any legitimate claim to be a serious historian. However, Mr Irving still insists he is a respected academic. He says that a document, which he is 80% sure is genuine, suggests that 2.4 million Jews were killed in Poland, but goes on to claim that the gas chamber at Auschwitz was fake. "It was not the centre of the killing operations - it has only become a focus because it is the site that is best preserved. Much of what is shown the tourists there is faked postwar - watchtowers, even the famous gas chamber."

He added: "In my opinion now the real killing operations took place at the Reinhardt camps west of the Bug river. In the three camps here [Sobibor, Belzec, and Treblinka] Heinrich Himmler's men (mostly Ukrainian mercenaries) killed possibly as many as 2.4 million in the two years up to October 1943. There is now nothing to be seen of the Reinhardt camps, neither stick nor stone, so few tourists go there. I have visited all four sites earlier this year."

Pressed as to whether this change undermined his previous stance, Mr Irving replied: "It is a crystallisation of my view." Asked if he now accepts there had been a Holocaust against the Jewish people he said he was "not going to use their trade name". He added: "I do accept that the Nazis quite definitely, that Heinrich Himmler, organised and directed a programme, a clandestine programme, for the liquidation of European Jews ... and that in 1942-43 alone over 2.5 million Jews were killed in those three camps." He added that Hitler was "completely in the dark" about the programme.

Last night Gerry Gable, of the anti-fascist organisation Searchlight, said: "This man is a hardened rightwing extremist and this latest development proves he is determined to pursue his agenda."
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Barrington James » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:26 am)

Could Irving be suffering from the Stockholm syndrome? Or perhaps he has had a breakdown of some sort? It is strange that a rersearcher of his status would suddenly start making such strange unfounded claims. Perhaps going to jail, losing one's fortune to a British court that he obviously must have believed in at one time does this to one? Perhaps someone should invite him over for a little talk along these lines. I think we all should do all we can to help him through his very difficult time.

Although he has never really been much of a denier, he has been thrust into the limelight and he is still is in a position to help or hurt the cause. Besides he has written some terrific books despite the fact the books of his that I have read contain little about the holocaust.
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:21 pm)

Irving now has the above absurd Guardian piece on his website. What's most revealing is that he offers no comment as to what 'document' "he is 80% sure is genuine".

Irving's 'document' doesn't pass the smell test.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:25 am)

I believe it's the Hoefle telegram he is referring to. At least he kept harping on it in is diary when visiting the former Reinhardt camps.

The telegram shows statistics for Jews sent to the three Reinhardt camps. It does not in any way state that these people were killed there and does not refute the revisionist hypothesis about those Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor being transit camps.

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Postby Barrington James » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:06 am)

Perhaps David Irving has been bought off. He took a real bath on the Debbie Lidstadt trial and no doubt needs the dough. So considering the fact he was never really much of a denier, why wouldn't he switch sides if the money was large enough? What would it take , five million? , ten million? It wouild be a good investment for the Zionists and Irving. They would get one of the highest profile deniers on their side for a very tiny percentage of their yearly gross and Irving would be rich again.

As I recall recall, ironically enough, Irving claims in one of his books on Churchill that Churchill did this very thing: switching from a critic of the Zionists in the 1920's to becoming their leading spokesman and chief war monger for the Focus group in the 1930's. It worked out well for both sides. The focus group got their war with Germany and the creation of Israel and Winston got to be Prime Minister.
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:17 am)

Laurentz Dahl stated:
I believe it's the Hoefle telegram he is referring to. At least he kept harping on it in is diary when visiting the former Reinhardt camps.

The telegram shows statistics for Jews sent to the three Reinhardt camps. It does not in any way state that these people were killed there and does not refute the revisionist hypothesis about those Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor being transit camps.

Thanks Laurentz.

Interesting debunking of the Hoefle 'document'; enjoy the attempts to defend the unsupportable assertions here.
'Heads up - new book claims Allies knew about Holocaust'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2350

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby grenadier » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:55 am)

I agree with you Laurentz, he's probably referring to the Hoefle telegram which, as you pointed out, refers to people's admission into the AR camps, it contains nothing re mass murder at all. Perhaps Irving is using the Hoaxters decoders now... And consider the source, allegedly British intelligence decrypted the message during the war and after more than 50 years it is 'found'. Hmmm..

Irving is probably trying to ingratiate himself with the Establishment, as Hannover pointed out. He always seemed too concerned about his reputation as a "respected academic" and after all that has happened to him he may be trying to "win it back" by pretty much reverting to his 'Hitlers War' thesis, the main difference now being Irving doesn't (for the moment) accept Auschwitz, while back then he did.

However, if Irving thinks that playing Holohoax lite will earn him his reputation back, he must be dreaming.

D.Irving will continue to hurt Revisionism however, since the Media has made him(falsely) into this spokesman and most important revisionist ever. And this even though he never wrote a single book on the subject.

It's ironic in a sense, because when Irving turned to revisionist ideas, he was featured on revisionist websites as one of them. Back then Irving was a best-selling historian who was very well known and indeed respected by many of his peers. Now the man is a liability who keeps hurting revisionism with his disgraceful comments...

Mr Irving, if you really want to know if mass murder in diesel gas chambers took place at the AR camps, take a look at the logistics of this sordid Hoax. Nothing, and I mean nothing, adds up.

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:02 pm)

My Position :

I have not read a skerrick of either D. Irving or D. Duke works, so I'm in no position to criticize either personally, however it appears D. Irving has made himself the "Useful Idiot" of the Holocaust Affirmers.

You only have to ask yourself, 'Who Benefits?'
Consider D. Irving, the man has been forced into Bankruptcy (lost some $175,000 in defamation & court imposed fines), he's spent time in Jail & is now a completely discredited former Historian with former "associations" with "Neo-Nazis".

Why continually give the man "Air Time" in the Media, when his claims are easily dismissed by both sides of the Holocaust debate?
I surmise he will be given as much "Air Time" as he desires as long as his claims are found to be erroneous & serve to make Revisionists look stupid

When Holocaust Affirmers are attacking D. Irving, they are not attacking Legitimate Holocaust Revisionists, Why because they can't.

Who Benefits?

When they have a "Useful Idiot" they can hold up to the limelight & dismiss.

The average Westerner has the attention span of a Goldfish. that is to say 30 seconds long, when they here the name D. Irving in the news, they will naturally "Switch Off" having subconsciously dismissed anything he may have had to say, Ergo : the Holocaust Affirmers Win

Regarding D. Duke, I only mention him because of his past KKK associations, he will forever have to be extra vigilant in his works, otherwise the same fate awaits him.

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Postby Wahrheit » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:25 pm)

Laurentz Dahl wrote:I believe it's the Hoefle telegram he is referring to. At least he kept harping on it in is diary when visiting the former Reinhardt camps.


Yes, Irving has surprisingly used the Hoefle document, but there is still a gap in his numbers.

Irvign appears to believe a document suggesting 2.4 million Jews killed up to Oct. 43 in Poland. What precise document this is, who wrote it, regarding what, why he believes 80% of it etc.. remains unclear.

Yet the Hoefle telegram only accounts for 1,274,166 Jews up to Dec. 42, or about 50% of Irving's estimate. Yes, there is a gap of some 10 months, but wheres the evidence that makes up this other half?

I suppose we shall wait and see until his Himmler book appears to give a fair analysis of his claims.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:43 pm)

Wahrheit wrote:I suppose we shall wait and see until his Himmler book appears to give a fair analysis of his claims.

I'll be interested to see how much of Joseph Bellinger's research on Himmler Irving tries to claim as his own.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:25 am)

grenadier wrote:the main difference now being Irving doesn't (for the moment) accept Auschwitz, while back then he did.


If I recall correctly Irving nowadays believes in Auschwitz in a Fritjof Meyer way, that is only gassings in the "bunkers" and a half a million or so victims. When Irving says that he does not believe in mass gassings at Auschwitz it's apparently because of the fact that those imaginary "bunkers" were situated outside the Birkenau camp perimeter, i.e. Irving style sophistry.

Wahrheit wrote:Irvign appears to believe a document suggesting 2.4 million Jews killed up to Oct. 43 in Poland. What precise document this is, who wrote it, regarding what, why he believes 80% of it etc.. remains unclear.

Yet the Hoefle telegram only accounts for 1,274,166 Jews up to Dec. 42, or about 50% of Irving's estimate. Yes, there is a gap of some 10 months, but wheres the evidence that makes up this other half?


I have never heard of a document mentioning the 2,4 million figure. Perhaps Irving has added the Hoefle figures to his estimates for Auschwitz + Einsatzgruppen. I think Irving believes the Chelmno story too, by the way.

It would be great to have Mr. Irving discussing the issue here on CODOH but I don't expect him to show up.

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Postby Mannstein » 1 decade 2 years ago (Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:24 am)

As Auschwitz is slowly being debunked as a killing center the death camps move further and further to the East. I think Germar Rudolf pointed this out sometime ago.

When all is said and done perhaps the only thing left will be the Gulag.

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Postby Kiwichap » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:17 pm)

I have reluctantly come to the opinion that Irving has been gotten to.

I wrote Irving after the latest Guardian article, where he said millions of Jews were killed and have not as yet received a reply. He states today in his online diary:
October 2, 2007 (Tuesday). Around nine Marissa [Jewish Forward] phones for a lengthy chat. She asks straight away about the reaction of "the revisionists" to The Guardian interview, and I say that I have received a lot of feedback from them, some welcoming my statements as being true to my policy of always writing what I find, others angry that I am breaking the "revisionist front". But basically I am not saying anything I have not been saying for years: something did happen; it was at other, less commercially exploitable, sites than at Auschwitz, ... where the killings were on a lesser scale.
But he is saying things differently than what he has been saying for years.

He has stated 'nothing will ever convince me now that what we have been told about the holocaust happened'

He said 'something stinks'... about the whole episode.

He said he uncovered the (propaganda) fraud in the British archives.

Irving has become a man facing bothways. A tight-rope walker. A wannabe consumate polititian, tickling the ears of each segment of the public with what they want to hear. I guess he thinks he is being clever. He obviously misses the accolades, the praise, all the attention and respect he so much enjoyed. His battle now is not with the truth, it is with his own ego. Pride has got the better of him.

Irving needs to remember who he is dealing with. He is not dealing with "those nice folk next door" as he likes to say. He is dealing with the chief custodians of the hoax. He is dealing with a bunch of crooks. He is making false concessions to crooks who will take those concessions and treat them with the contempt they deserve. Irving is dealing with a pack of bald-faced, bloody-minded, in your face, liars.

He is a fool if he thinks the chief custodians of the hoax are reasonable men, and do not know they are lying. Of course they are, and we all know it. He has lost the respect of BOTH sides now. I expect to see him grovel and cringe, an obedient slave to his own cowardice, for the rest of his life, as the hoaxers screw him down, ever tighter and tighter, until he wastes away, a man rejected and forgotten by the truthseekers, and ridiculed and shamed by those who are now his masters.

He is buying time for the custodians, giving them a way out of their dilemma. There was no holocaust. The hoaxers know it too. They have been on the backfoot for a long time now over Auschwitz, the holy of holies, and the ridiculous nonsense surrounding that camp. They have not won a genuine battle for sometime now, and they all can see the writing on the wall. Irving is probably helping them change the hoax story once again. Giving the liars a breather while they conjure up another fable. I wonder what they offered him, Peace? Whatever, Treblinka science will rise up and bite him on the backside, just as it did Auschwitz.

There is no going back for him now, he has changed his tune once too often, his mind is petrified, or was that crystalised? Either way, the man has made a bad bargain he will certainly live to regret. I am thankful he was in prison and could not attend the Iran Conference. He may have gotten all the attention and set revisionism back sixty years.
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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 2 years ago (Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:56 pm)

October 2, 2007 (Tuesday). Around nine Marissa [Jewish Forward] phones for a lengthy chat. She asks straight away about the reaction of "the revisionists" to The Guardian interview, and I say that I have received a lot of feedback from them, some welcoming my statements as being true to my policy of always writing what I find, others angry that I am breaking the "revisionist front". But basically I am not saying anything I have not been saying for years: something did happen; it was at other, less commercially exploitable, sites than at Auschwitz, ... where the killings were on a lesser scale.

Utter BS. Irving once said that '500,000 Jews died of all causes', I believe it was in an interview with Michael Shermer.

"true to my policy of always writing what I find" ???

Yet what has he found? He won't even say. Speculation here as to what it is he has 'found' indicates he has nothing to support his position. And what's with his laughable '80% certainty'.

Step aside, Irving. You're embarrassing yourself.

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Postby ASMarques » 1 decade 2 years ago (Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:06 am)

The Hoefle telegram informs on the development of Operation Reinhart (sic: "Einsatz Reinhart"), stating the arrival figures for the two weeks previous to 31.12.42 at four camps (presumably designated by each camp's initial) and adding up the figures thus:

L(ublin) (i.e. Majdanek): 12.761
B(elzec): 0
S(obibor): 515
T(reblinka): 10.335
Total: 23.611

It also indicates the total situation figures up to 31.12.42 as:

L(ublin): 24.733
B(elzec): 434.508
S(obibor): 101.370
T(reblinka): 713.555
Total: 1.274.166

That's all. There is no mention whatsoever of any killings, either explicit or in any of the so-called "coded forms." And, to my knowledge, no revisionist or "Holocaust" debunker has ever denied the massive deportation of Jews involved in Operation Reinhard...

Apparently Irving doesn’t believe in the concept of transit camps on the path of a mass deportation of Jews to the East -- even though Goebbels, his favorite "Holocaust" sponsor, speaking to himself in his diaries, clearly refers to the Reinhardt concept, involving violent step-phased deportation to the East with confiscation of valuables etc. -- so his conclusion can only be "either the deported masses magically vanished or they were disposed of through mass killings at those points." Of course, the second hypothesis is not an improvement on the first, since it too requires the magical disappearance of the massive remains that would have resulted in the specific locations of the mass killings.

To my mind what has been irking him is the apparent lack of visible railroad markings going out from some of the places he has recently visited. He mentioned this in his diary, but I think a few things should be kept in mind:

1) First and foremost, the precise location of the Reinhard camps at the frontiers of the Greater Reich & General Government must be striking to any observer looking at the contemporaneous maps. Why would this be so? I mean, you may wish for secluded dark places such as woods etc. in order to commit murder, but why locate them precisely at the borders? You do that when you want to move people out of the land, not when you want to bury them under it. The location of the Reinhardt camps is much better explained if you consider them as transit camps involving limited permanence (some sort of buffer for the collection of deportees, as implied in the Goebbels diaries) or as a requirement for the change of means of transport, than as improvised extermination instruments, devised as gigantic depots of human remains (that left no signs at all, since those millions of corpses are presumed to have been vaporized by fire, either on the spot or later on...).

2) According to what I have read, there were indeed outgoing railroads from some of those places further into the East, though apparently involving changes of rail gauges. And the fact that the wartime railroad movement records for the Bielorussian region (today's Belarus) have vanished in their entirety is very suspicious.

3) References to marching columns of deportees on foot occur frequently in the German literature (including Himmler's speeches). This is not astonishing at all: in the East the railroad network was awful, some of the Soviet deportations, even to Siberia, were also done on foot, and that meant a much, much longer way to go than from the Reich frontier to the hinterland works (road building, arms factories etc.) behind the front in Bielorussia or Ukraine.

4) After the Leuchter Report and its sequels, at the beginning of the great Auschwitz shipwreck, for a short time and given the weak Einstazgruppen effectives, there was a visible attempt by such "Holocaust" luminaries as Martin Gilbert to transfer the bulk of the so-called industrial mass killings from the Birkenau alleged gas chambers to the very large ghettoes of the East (at the time, in the Times Atlas of the Second World War, Gilbert went so far as to include Maly Trostinets, near Minsk, and Jungernhof, near Riga, among the "extermination camps", while relegating Chelmno -- one of the traditional big six! -- to the simple "concentration camps"). I myself have met in "Holocaust" discussions on the Internet, several folks who, while accepting the usual views of the "Holocaust," claim their German Jewish grandparents were deported from Germany into the Eastern ghettoes. One of them, a Jew from New York, told me he had investigated the matter and discovered at the Red Cross Archives that two of his grandparents, both deported from Berlin, ended up dying precisely in Riga and Maly Trostinets! Of course, Gilbert & Co. soon realized that the new course the "Holocaust" was taking by transferring the Auschwitz mass-killing industry to such places as Minsk was a very risky one, since it would put in evidence that very large scale deportations into the East had indeed taken place, exactly as Goebbels and many others maintained in their notes. So, it was back to the Auschwitz basics and more smoke curtains.

In short: Irving has never claimed to have studied -- or even having been much interested in -- any of the by now nauseating "Holocaust" stuff and its accompanying scams, but he seems to be working under the delusion that every enormous lie must necessarily have a deep part of truth. Well, I can think of someone who would most certainly contradict that, not an hero of mine, but nevertheless a very clever observer of the human nature...
Last edited by ASMarques on Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:32 am, edited 4 times in total.


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