holocaust-history.org tries Treblinka

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Hannover
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holocaust-history.org tries Treblinka

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:51 pm)

I refer our readers to:
'Appendix D - Ash Disposal and Mass Graves at Treblinka'
http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/appendixd/

Note that it's absurdly alleged that 700,000 - 900,000 (the numbers have been repeatedly changed) Jews were gassed with submarine or Soviet tank engines, buried, exhumed, and then cremated.

Here are the images and their captions.

Image
caption: 'Figure D1 - Mass Grave Opening, March 1943'

We see no indication that this is even Treblinka.
We see no indication that it is even a 'mass grave'.
We see no human remains of any kind.

Image
caption: 'Figure D2 - Ash Heaps'

We see a steam shovel dropping some dirt which appears to have been darkened for sinister effect upon a curiously much lighter pile of dirt and then we see some kind of mounds with arrows which offers no proof that we're looking a human ash. It's simply a completely unsupportable claim.
There is no excavation of the alleged enormous mass grave that can be shown. Why?
Imagine, a claimed number of Jews which would fill the Rose Bowl 8 - 10 times and what we're left with is this embarrassing display of 'photos'.

Image
caption: 'Figure D3 - Horse Drawn Conveyance in the Death Camp'

We see the same steam shovel dropping dirt and a horse in the background. This is considered proof for of 'holocaust', laughable.

These 'photos' are supposedly from a photo album by SS Kurt Franz. Imagine those silly Germans allowing Kurt to roam around freely taking pictures of what was supposedly a top secret matter. Absurd to say the least.

Image
caption: 'Figure D4 - Mass Grave Excavation'

I see nothing that can be proven to be a 'mass grave'.
I also see the same steam shovel 'photo' that was used just previously.

Image
caption: 'Figure D5 - Mass Grave, mass grave opening'

I see our little steam shovel sitting next to a ledge of what looks like a sand /gravel quarry. There is no proof that this is a mass grave and none can be shown.

Image
caption: 'Figure D6 - Composited Imagery of Grave Opening'

What we see is drawn on buildings, fences, and labels which are, well, drawn on.
Check out the embarrassingly incongruous blobs to the right and left, and the claims of a 'mass grave opening'. Someone has been rather busy.

Image
caption: 'Figure D7 - Composited Imagery of Grave Opening'

More of the same nonsense.
I really love those incongruous blobs.
Note how close the farmers cultivated their crops, right up to the edge of an alleged 'death camp'. The Treblinka 'death camp' was said to be a 'secret'. I guess the SS knew the Polish farmers were good at keeping a secret.
I suppose the drawn on fence is supposed to have blocked their vision.
Hilarious.

Image
caption: 'Figure D8 - Composited Imagery of Grave Opening'

Another cartoonish creation meant to baffle the viewer. Look at the thing, it's simply bizarre. Steamshovels and blobs. Call it 'chutzpah' in action.

Then go to 'next' and follow their little story about body sizes and the alleged 'mass graves' they cannot show us an excavation of.

Revisionists are just the messengers, it's aburd creations like http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/appendixd/ which are the
message.

see more images and info. here:

'Train track to Treblinka and Kola Report'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2562

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Laurentz Dahl » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:03 am)

For the dimensions of the alleged mass graves, Bay uses Wiernik's testimony, which states that they had a depth of 10 meter.

In other Treblinka accounts (for example Willenberg's) it is mentioned that there were peat bogs in the vicinity of the two Treblinka camps. If we look at the map from 1937, we will see that there are lots of marshy/wetland areas closeby, which is not surprising, since the large Bug River is only a few kilometers to the north.

Diggers of mass graves at Treblinka would almost certainly have hit groundwater at 4-6 meters below surface, possibly even higher up.

Bay's "identification" of the positions of the gas chamber buildings is interesting. While Bay makes a decent case for some of the torn down barracks in the "living camp" and "reception camp" by using stetoscopical versions of the air photos ( http://www.holocaust-history.org/Trebli ... ndex.shtml ) he can not show us any visible remains of the gas chamber buildings. Instead, he simply follow Wiernik's account and draw white lines showing the positions of the gas chamber buildings. However, a quick look at this portion of the air photo will show absolutely no scarring corresponding to the outlines of the alleged buildings. The only tangible object he is able to verify is some kind of small road running in north-south direction (figure 31).

Annotation D is a large rectangular scar, with a smaller square appendage extending to the south. The larger area measures roughly 27 meters [88 feet] on a side. The size as well as the orientation of this feature initially points to this as possibly being the site of the footings for the large gas chamber building. The pattern of this area is one that would be expected as the result of an excavation made to allow the demolition and removal of a building's foundations. It cannot, however, be explained why the scars from the removal of this building should persist so clearly, while those from the grave pits became overgrown. In the figure, light tones are representative of sterile soil and dark tones are indicative of soil that supports more vigorous plant growth. It became clearer after studying other sources, that this area could not be the site of the gas chambers. It was concluded that it was rather the area where the grates for burning the victim's corpses had been.


This is the September air photo with Bay's annotations A-E (fig.32):

Image

So Bay initially believed the lighter, somewhat rectangular area at D was the site of the new gas chamber building. Later he discard this hypothesis (more about that later). His new interpretations is that the area in question shows the scarring resulting from the miraculous "grills". Now, why would this area show as lighter than the surrounding areas on the photo, if "light tones are representative of sterile soil". Wouldn't remnants of the ashes mixed with the soil lead to a more fertile soil?

If we are to believe Wiernik, Bay's star witness, the concrete foundations of the "grills" measured 100-150 meters in length (according to the translation given in Donat). How would this fit into the D area, which Bay states has a length of approximately 27 meters?

In his following discussion, Bay uses Wiernik's models and testimony to conclude another position for the two gas chamber buildings, as shown in figure 35:

Image

A close look at the photo will show, however, that there is no visible scarring, at all, to support the claim that there once existed two buildings at this site.

And how come that the large rectangular mass graves marked by Bay does not show up in any way on the September 44 air photo?

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Postby MrNobody » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:06 am)

Hannover wrote:
More of the same nonsense.
I really love those incongruous blobs.

I'm betting they were supposed to look like smoke rising from the fire grates, obviously the amateur couldn't pull it off.

Hannover wrote:Note how close the farmers cultivated their crops, right up to the edge of an alleged 'death camp'. The Treblinka 'death camp' was said to be a 'secret'. I guess the SS knew the Polish farmers were good at keeping a secret.


- Hannover

Keeping secrets had nothing to do with it, When the camp was first built every German throughout the Reich used their "Germano-Vulcan" Mind Meld to imbue the "Never Brown, Never Dry Out" Pine Needle Fence with "Psychic Powers" which caused the unsuspecting Polish farmers to avert their gaze. :lol: (hey, if Holohoaxers can make absurd claims, why can't I?)

Laurentz Dahl wrote:Now, why would this area show as lighter than the surrounding areas on the photo, if "light tones are representative of sterile soil". Wouldn't remnants of the ashes mixed with the soil lead to a more fertile soil?


Ash is naturally Alkaline, large amounts in a given area can overload the soil causing sterility.
The presence of Hydrocarbons from the fuels used to ignite say... Alleged pyres may also cause sterility.
So "Bay" isn't completely stupid, he's at least basing his interpretations on basic soil chemistry.
Wir brauchen eine Bewegung, die Deutschland endlich aus der Kontrolle der Kräfte von Versailles und Jalta befreit, die uns schon ein ganzes Jahrhundert lang von einer Kastastrophe in die andere stürzt.

Helga Zepp-LaRouche.

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Postby jnovitz » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:36 am)

Now, why would this area show as lighter than the surrounding areas on the photo, if "light tones are representative of sterile soil". Wouldn't remnants of the ashes mixed with the soil lead to a more fertile soil?


Light tones are representative of soil with no vegetative cover, so dirt roads actually appear white in aerial photos.

Either the photos have been whited out or there was no vegetation over the campsite - consistent with a number of things, but including disturbed soil from mass graves.

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Postby nathan » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:32 pm)

Laurentz Dahl 2 December poses the right question, which I amplify. If the ectoplasm at D can capture the ghostly soil imprint of small ex-buildings – buildings that left no discoverable vestige at ground level in ploughed land - then it should be very easy to locate those huge burial sites of which the bulk are located by orthodoxy in the south-eastern corner of the inner camp within in a five acre area very roughly south of the letter E. Following a consensus of testimonies there were here some huge rectangular ash-filled pits, several metres deep, large enough to have originally contained in total hundreds of thousands of bodies. These mega-ditches must have had sides and gangways wide enough to maneuver machinery, and one would expect them to exhibit some kind of system or plan - there must be limits to German inefficiency.

Actually I rather suspect that what passes for “expertise” in aerial photography is merely knowledge or opinion about the terrain. Experts who do detect and explain aerial evidence of ancient burial sites are indeed expert – as archaeologists. But any fool can see on their photographs the unambiguous concentric circles which these experts prove to be double-ring-ditch roundbarrow sites under land which has been ploughed flat for years. Nothing is unambiguous in the two Treblinka air photos.

There are many puzzles in Bay’s essay. I shall take them one at a time. His key testimony is the map which Wiernik published in 1944 from his own memory. But this map is a copy – not a reproduction - of document number 2 in the appendix to Mattogno and Graf’s book. This is so obvious that I cannot imagine that I am the first to notice it or that anyone would care to dispute it. Will anyone? However, it is important to be sure that Mattogno and Graf have dated their map correctly as appearing with a propaganda piece of 15 November 1942, when the camp had been busy for only a few months. Perhaps they have mistaken their dates. Otherwise this map cannot represent the personal memories of a prisoner who escaped in August 1943 and published in 1944. Everyone knows that Wiernik’s account is not always rich in credibility but I want to get this one point out of the way.

See Document number 2 in Mattogno and Graf
http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/13.html

See figure 13 in Charles Bay
http://www.holocaust-history.org/Treblinka/

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Postby nathan » 1 decade 3 years ago (Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:20 am)

I must confess that in chapter 3 of their book on Treblinka that Mattogno and Graf did say that Wiernik in 1944 recycled the anonymous November 1942 map, amending steam to gas in the (otherwise copied) map legend. Their remark must have passed me by when I first read it, and perhaps other readers too will not register the nakedness of the plagiarism unless they visit the Appendix and directly compare the two sketch maps.

At the Eichman trial in 1961 Wiernik testified that he drew his map in late 1943 when he joined the resistance. Had he himself smuggled out this map in November 42 he would surely have taken credit for doing so. Having spent over a year in the camp he apparently could find no serious fault with an early layout made by an uncredited cartographer who believed that Treblinka occupied several square miles.

In his essay Charles Alex Bay says that the “greatest value of Wiernik’s map was to establish the credibility of his memory” but unless Mattogno and Graf have mis-dated this map, Wiernik's memoryevidently needed some jogging.

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Postby PotPie » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:45 am)

They do all this as if a mass grave there, if one existed, proves the mass-gassing of Jews. Give me a break! Nonsense like that is only evidence to the gullible and unanalytical.


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