Well, here it is folks - RM's "proof" that there is the remains of at least 600 jews buried in Belzecs grave #10. Just rember this - this is the best that the jews / holocaustians can do - no physical evidence - just "evidence-backed estimates." (Please note, in another post just before this, RM says: "An archaeologist’s public statement is proof enough, as far as I’m concerned.)
So here is my introduction, RM's "proof," and my closing remarks (post #1133 on VNN forum):
I have an idea. If any one of the holocaust controversies freaks can prove that Belzecs grave #10, the largest of all the alleged "huge mass graves" allegedly found at Belzec by Kola himself, contains the remains - of just 600 jews - (Yes, that hundred, not thousand), I will pledge $5,000.00 myself to The Sobibor Archaeology Project in said freaks name.
This is the "proof" that Roberto Muehlenkamp has presented (on the VNN forum) that Belzecs grave #10 contains at least 600 bodies and to lay claim to the $5,000.00 peldge challenge:
Belzec grave # 10 is described as follows in Prof. Andrzej Kola’s book BEŁŻEC The Nazi Camp for Jews in the Light of Archaeological Sources, quoted in Part 3 of my article Carlo Mattogno on Belzec Archaeological Research:
The grave pit No 10 (Fig 27)
One of the biggest graves, in bottom view of a rectangular shape with the size of about 24,00 x 18,00 m. Situated in the north-central part of ha XV, basing on 16 deep drills (No 482-490, 494, 496-499, 501, 520); in some neighbourhood, much more shallow drills (with the ground bottom of about 1,50 m) crematory remains were reported. The grave was very deep (the drills in particular places were stopped at the depth of 4,25 to 5,20 m, because of bodies in wax-fat transformation and underground waters presence). One drill (No 483) at the depth of 4,40 m revealed the appearance of several cm layer of white sand mixed with rich lime. Over body layers there were some levels of crematory remains mixed with charcoal in turn with layers of sandy soil (20 cm). The edge parts of the pit are filled shallow, to the depth of about 1,50 m, probably because of getting some soil to make next layers between the bodies. That fact caused widening of the grave which was filled with next body remains. The estimated volume of the grave amounts about 2100 m3.
The total estimated volume of the 33 mass graves at Belzec is 21,310 cubic meters – room enough, according to the considerations in Section 4.1 of my Mattogno-Belzec article, to bury the corpses of over 434,000 people, known through documentary evidence to have been transported to Belzec and through documentary and eyewitness evidence to have been murdered there, before the mass graves were emptied and the corpses were burned. If Prof. Kola's team managed to identify all mass graves of the Belzec extermination camp during the archaeological investigations conducted between 1997 and 1999, this means that the 434,508 people known to have been transported to Belzec minus a handful of survivors were buried in these 21,310 cubic meters of mass grave before the general exhumation and burning of the bodies started. A mass grave with a volume of 2,100 cubic meters would thus have contained almost one-tenth of the total of corpses, roughly 42,800 of them.
Between November 1942 and March 1943, the bodies were removed from the mass graves and burned at first one and then two fireplaces – see the testimony of former SS-man Heinrich Gley, quoted in Section 4.2 of my Mattogno-Belzec article. The ash, bone fragments and other partial remains left over by cremation were returned to the mass graves, where they were found by Prof. Kola's team decades later – insofar as they had not been projected to the surface and scattered by subsequent leveling of and robbery digging in the area. On page 20 of his Belzec book, Prof. Kola wrote the following:
The excavations proved many layers of body ashes mixed with sand in turn, which indicated that the pits were used in many stages, each time covered with a new sand layer. One can suppose that the ashes filled the pits completely, and only a very thin layer of surface soil was used as a cover. Therefore during the camp closing in 1943 year and levelling works taken up at that time, as well as robbery digs around the camp area directly after the war, the most part of body ashes was placed over the surface, and even now the presence of burnt bodies' traces is quite clear in the surface structures, particularly in the western and northern part of the camp. In those very parts the zone of graves was located.
Assuming that the cremation remains of two-thirds of the 434,500 people murdered at Belzec were brought to the surface and scattered during the dismantling of the camp and posterior robbery digging, the remains of about 144,800 people would still be inside the graves. Assuming that the backfilling of the graves with cremation remains by the SS was done evenly and every mass grave thus received an amount of such remains more or less corresponding to the amount of bodies that had once been buried in it, this would mean that grave # 10, with almost 10 % of the total burial volume, still contains the remains of about 14,270 human beings – more than twice the number required by Gerdes.
Another way of estimating the contents of grave # 10 is to consider the height of the layers of human remains found therein, according to the above-quoted description of this grave in Kola's book. While there’s no information about the thickness of the layer of corpses in wax-fat transformation inside this grave – on page 20 of his book, Kola wrote that in some graves "the layer of corpses reached the thickness of ca 2,00"), the description suggests that the grave contains several layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal", alternating at intervals of 20 cm with "layers of sandy soil".
A layer of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" 20 cm thick would, considering the area of the mass grave (24 x 18 = 432 square meters), have a volume of 432 x 0.20 = 86.40 cubic meters. In Section 4.5 of my Mattogno-Belzec article, I calculated that the cremation of 434,000 people would leave the following volume of human and wood ashes, according to data from cremation experiments conducted by Carlo Mattogno:
Therefore – and this, as pointed out, is a maximum calculation knowingly based on exaggerated assumptions regarding the weight of the corpses to be incinerated – the victims’ ash and the wood ash together would have taken up 1,519 + 3,574 = 5,093 or 1,519 + 7,148 = 8,667 cubic meters of volume, i.e. less than 24 % or less than 41 % of the grave volume of 21,310 cubic meters.
Human ashes would thus make up at least 17.53 % (1,519 ÷ 8,667) and at most 29.83 % (1,519 ÷ 5,093) of the mass of human plus wood ashes. Applied to 86.40 cubic meters of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal", this means that each such layer in Belzec grave # 10 contains at least 15.14 cubic meters, but possibly as much as 25.77cubic meters, of "crematory remains". 15.14 cubic meters of human ashes, according to Mattogno’s calculations used in Section 4.5 of my Mattogno-Belzec article, correspond to 7.57 tons of the same, which in turn correspond to a life or pre-cremation weight of 151,43 tons or 151,430 kilograms. Assuming – as I did in my aforementioned article – an average of 35 kg of pre-cremation weight per dead body, this would correspond to 151,430 ÷ 35 = 4,327 dead bodies. Assuming, as Mattogno did, an exaggerated average (considering that the Jews deported to Belzec were mostly women and children) of 45 kg of pre-cremation weight per dead body, we would have the remains of 3,365 people in each 20 cm layer of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" in Belzec grave # 10. Assuming a ridiculously unrealistic 60 kg per dead body, the amount of human ashes in such layer would still correspond to 2,524 dead bodies. If the proportion of human ashes was 29.93 %, the respective numbers would be 7,363 (35 kg), 5,726 (45 kg) and 4,295 (60 kg) bodies per layer.
How many such layers are inside grave # 10 we do not know, but even if the soil cover on top of the grave were two meters thick (which is unlikely, as Kola reports having found crematory remains in drills only 1.50 meters deep "in some neighbourhood") and bodies in wax-fat transformation or layers of "white sand mixed with rich lime" started at a depth of 4 meters (actually bodies in wax-fat transformation were encountered at 4.25 meters in some parts of the grave while sand and lime was found at 4.40 meters in others), the two meters in between would still contain 5 layers of 20 cm each containing "crematory remains mixed with charcoal", alternated with 5 equally thick layers of sand. This would mean that grave # 10 contains the remains of the following number of human beings, not counting the bodies in wax-fat transformation at the bottom of the grave:
a) Assuming 15.14 cubic meters of human ashes in each layer containing 86.40 cubic meters of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" and 5 such layers
• At average body weight of 35 kg: 5 x 4,327 = 21,633 bodies
• At average body weight of 45 kg: 5 x 3,365 = 16,826 bodies
• At average body weight of 60 kg: 5 x 2,524 = 12,619 bodies
b) Assuming 25.77 cubic meters of human ashes in each layer containing 86.40 cubic meters of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" and 5 such layers
• At average body weight of 35 kg: 5 x 7,363 = 36,813 bodies
• At average body weight of 45 kg: 5 x 5,726 = 28,632 bodies
• At average body weight of 60 kg: 5 x 4,295 = 21,474 bodies
The minimum number of dead bodies that these calculations turn out is 12,619, more than double the number Gerdes wants to see proven. That's assuming an average pre-cremation weight of 60 kg per body, which is ridiculously exaggerated considering that deportees to Belzec were mostly malnourished women and children from miserable Polish ghettos. And it only considers the layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" mentioned by Prof. Kola, not the bodies in wax-fat transformation at the bottom of grave # 10.
This means that, if Gerdes were reasonably prepared to accept reasonable, evidence-backed estimates like the above as proof that Belzec grave # 10 contains human remains corresponding to at least 6,000 dead bodies, he should now go about making good his pledge to donate $5,000.00 to "Kola's Sobibor report fund".
If, on the other hand, what Gerdes wants to see is a physical quantification of human remains contained in grave # 10 at Belzec and an expert's confirmation that the remains so quantified correspond to at least 6,000 human bodies, his requirements are at least very difficult to meet. For they would imply the following:
i) Excavating this mass grave (something that Prof. Kola did not do due to considerations of respect for the dead he had to comply with, see Part 1 of my Mattogno-Belzec article),
ii) Extracting the layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" contained therein,
iii) Separating the crematory remains from the charcoal,
iv) Establishing the weight and volume of the crematory remains thus separated and
v) Having an expert provide an assessment of the number of human bodies to which these crematory remains correspond.
First of all, it is unlikely that anyone will obtain permission to excavate any of the Belzec mass graves, already because the area has been turned into an elaborate memorial.
Second, even if excavations were to be authorized, despite the disturbances of the memorial area they would presumably imply, long and arduous archaeological work would be required to remove the aforementioned layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" from the mass grave.
Third, once the layers of "crematory remains mixed with charcoal" had been extracted from the grave, how would one separate the charcoal from the crematory remains in a manner that allows for accurately quantifying the latter? I strongly doubt that this is possible. But maybe Gerdes can tell us how he would do it.
Fourth, assuming that the crematory remains can be separated from the charcoal in a manner allowing for reliably quantifying the crematory remains, could an expert in matters of cremation accurately establish to how many human beings these remains belonged? One doesn’t have to be a cremation expert to realize that this is impossible, considering the variables involved, and that the most an expert can provide is an estimate based on assumptions that, however reasonable and realisitic they may be, cannot be empirically confirmed.
So if Gerdes were only to accept as proof an exact physical quantification in the sense described above, he would be asking for something that is very hard if not impossible to accomplish.
So which of them is it, Mr. Gerdes?
Will you accepta reasonable, evidence-backed estimate, like those presented above, as proof that Belzec grave # 10 contains the remains of at least 6,000 dead people?
If so, better go get your money.
Or will you require a precise physical quantification that, for the reasons described above, is very difficult if not impossible to accomplish?
* * * * *
OMFG, how does one describe such insanity? It even admits that - "How many such layers are inside grave # 10 we do not know."
and what it's presented as "proof" isn't proof, but rather "an estimate."
"If, on the other hand, what Gerdes wants to see is a physical quantification of human remains contained in grave # 10 at Belzec and an expert's confirmation that the remains so quantified correspond to at least 6,000 human bodies, his requirements are at least very difficult to meet."
Proving that the dullest of the dull not only didn't meet the requirements, but it knew that the requirement of "proof" wasn't met.
Yet it still presented such drivel as proof!
Pure, unadulterated insanity. Wow!
I have three follow up questions for the dull one:
1 - How much human remains did Kola actually find in Belzecs grave #10?
2 - Out of the alleged 1,920,000 teeth allegedly in said "huge mass grave," how many teeth did he find?
3 - Just what part of the word proof do you not understand?
* Of course, this begs the question: If the above is "proof" that Belzecs grave #10 contains the remains of 1% of the alleged mass murder at Belzec, then why didn't the dull one submit it to "skeptic" magazine and lay claim to THE FINAL SOLUTION FORENSIC CHALLENGE when it had the chance?
I tell you what dull one, since you want so badly to have your drivel published in Archaeology Magazine, I will let them be the final arbitrator of whether or not what you just presented as "proof" is actually proof. If Archaeology Magazine will publish it, I will consider it proof. The only caveat is - it has to be in the EXACT form as is shown above.
And just to clarify, we are still only talking about 600 (hundred), i.e. - 1/10th of 1% of the total alleged mass murder.
What are you waiting for dull one?
Last edited by Greg Gerdes
on Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.