Believer response to Moran's summary

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
Turpitz
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 975
Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 12:57 pm

Believer response to Moran's summary

Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:06 pm)

A problem from T Moran's literature put on a web-site for believers to ponder:

Then came 1960 when it was quietly announced unchallenged that there were no gassings carried out at any camps located on German soil and thus with the deletion of that myth so went the hundreds of thousands unto millions of victims into the realms of never were, and so too at the same time was the tacit admittance all the documented evidence was a lie.



Answer from believer:


If you are refering to the letter written by the director of the Institut fur Zeitgeschichte (Institute for Contemporary History), in Munich:

No Gassing in Dachau

Neither in Dachau nor in Bergen-Belsen nor in Buchenwald were Jews or other prisoner gassed.

This letter does confirm that mass gassing did take place in the larger camps (which of course, is something that you Holocaust-deniers wish to ignore or deny). You also fail to mention that, since 1960, the Institut has performed more research and has come to a new conclustion. They now say:

...a gas chamber was established [in Dachau] in which...a few experimental gassings were undertaken, as more recent research has confirmed.

it won't be the first time, nor the last, that you Holocaust-deniers think that lack of information helps prove the Holocaust did not occur - you are obviously deluded.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9975
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:34 pm)

True Believer stated:
This letter does confirm that mass gassing did take place in the larger camps (which of course, is something that you Holocaust-deniers wish to ignore or deny). You also fail to mention that, since 1960, the Institut has performed more research and has come to a new conclustion. They now say:
...a gas chamber was established [in Dachau] in which...a few experimental gassings were undertaken, as more recent research has confirmed.

it won't be the first time, nor the last, that you Holocaust-deniers think that lack of information helps prove the Holocaust did not occur - you are obviously deluded.


Ofcourse he can't provide any evidence for the desperate, fallback position of "experimental" gassings at Dachau, what a joke.

What is his "more recent research"?.....which necessarily contradicts Nuremberg....oops.
At Nuremberg it was said that gassings were rampant at Dachau, not "experimental"....it's good to see this shrill character admit then that Nuremberg 'facts' are indeed lies.

Nor can this individual provide any credible evidence for gassings elsewhere. I notice that he is afraid to debate us here...or perhaps is he one of those that resorts to namecalling, subject changing, and dodging. The tactics of those with no support for their assertions.

It sounds like someone from the pathetic 'holocau$t History Project' which has been shredded repeatedly on every topic they try to promote.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Turpitz
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 975
Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 12:57 pm

Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:54 pm)

I hope you don't mind Hannover, but I posted your answer and asked him for a link to the so-called 'new research'. This was his/her reply:

You are the one who brought up the erroneous accusation that it was "quietly announced" in 1960 "that there were no gassings carried out on any camps located on German soil". I provided the actual letter that you were referring to which said no such thing. It seems that you are all for research into finding the truth of what happened during the Holocaust but then dismiss it when it does not tally with your twisted views. If you want credible evidence then ask the Institut fur Zeitgeschichte (Institute for Contemporary History), in Munich for it instead of merely saying "it sounds like". You are the one who said it is wrong, the onus is on you to prove it instead of resorting to puerile accusations as only your type ever do.



Note the old trick of turning the onus around on to the revisionist's to do the proving.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9975
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:44 pm)

This desperate guy from the 'holocaust' History Project says there were "experimental" gassings at Dachau, but curiously cannot provide any evidence. Sounds like irrational wishful thinking.

Turpitz is right, the onus is upon the accuser to prove their assertions, but this IS the wacko 'holocau$t' where science, logic, and reason are not permitted.

And the True Believer ignores all the lies at Nuremberg....I see he dodged that point all together.

at Nuremberg, perjurer Blaha said about Dachau in a sworn statement:
"There were numerous executions by gas, executions by firearms, and by injections, in the camp. The gas chamber was finished in 1944, and I called Dr. Rascher to examine the first victim. Of the eight or nine persons in the chamber, three were still alive; the others seemed to be dead. Their eyes were red and their faces bloated. Numerous detainees were subsquently killed in the same manner." IMT, vol. V, p. 198 (PS-3249).

But we're told now that there were no gassings, and THEN we're told there were "experimnetal" gassings which contradicts Blaha...the liars can't keep their stories straight.

However, here's more:
"... In 1942 a gas chamber was also built in the Dachau concentration camp, but inexplicably, it was never used. It was located within the new crematorium, a larger building whose construction with four ovens became necessary when the first crematorium, which had only one oven, proved inadequate."

- from museum booklet
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Dachau/Da ... kText.html


"inexplicably it was never used"..?? Oh please, that's pathetic. IOW, there was no gas chambers period.

and:
The May-June 1993 Journal of Historical Review (page 12) contains a letter by Dr. Martin Broszat [of the Institute for Contemporary history in Munich] regarding the Dachau concentration camp. Broszat mentions a gas chamber there, never completely finished or put into operation.

but:
Toward the end of World War II, I was a US Army captain on the staff of Ambassador Robert Murphy, political advisor to General Eisenhower. I was at Dachau about a month after it had been liberated, either the end of May or the beginning of June, 1945. There was no gas chamber there, nor did I see one in the process of construction. What did occur was that some higher authority in the American occupation government, whether a civilian or military, I don't know, decreed that a gas chamber should be built, which was subsequently done.
I was also at the Buchenwald camp a few days after it was liberated on April 11, 1945. There was a crematory there but no gas chamber.

Homer G. Richey
Charlottesville, Virginia

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n2_Letters.html


and let's not forget this nugget:

The original U.S Army investigation after liberation, described the allged gas chamber as having a 10 ft ceiling beset with "brass fixtures" (Doc L-159, No 47 of 79th Congress, 1st Session (Exhibit NO. USA-222; IMT, XXXVII, p.621)). The ceiling today is 7.6 ft and the fake showerheads are made of sheet metal.

more:
"THE GAS CHAMBER disguised as a 'shower room' was never used as a gas chamber."
- Andrew Mollo, "Dachau," After the Battle (London: Battle of Britain Prints Ltd., 1980), Number 27, pp. 1-29.


Poor old Mollo still can't accept that a shower room was indeed a shower room. He presents no evidence that they weren't and he says nothing of 'experimental gassings'.

and:

Dr. Charles Larson, one of America's leading forensic pathologists, who was assigned to the US Army's Judge Advocate General's Department. As part of a US War Crimes Investigation Team, Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty other German camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for three days by US Army prosecutors.
Dr. Larson's findings?
In an 1980 newspaper interview he said: "What we've heard is that six million Jews were exterminated. Part of that is a hoax." And what part was the hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater" of Allied military operations, confirmed that "never was a case of poison gas uncovered."

and:

....in the files of the Hoover Library at Stanford, California, are the papers of British secret service (MI6) agent Captain S. Payne Best, who was captured by the Gestapo with fellow-agent Stevens in the famous Venlo Incident in May 1940.
Both were held for most of the war in Dachau concentration camp. After Stevens wrote a best-seller in which he laid it on thick and rotten about how they had been brutally tortured by the Nazis, Best wrote to him a letter (the carbon copy is in the Hoover manuscript collection) suggesting that he shut up, as both knew that they had been treated decently and well by their captors, and that there had not been the slightest maltreatment.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Turpitz
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 975
Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 12:57 pm

Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:07 pm)

Can you believe the reply he has given now ?

All of us can think what we like about any subject whatsoever but just because we have not been given sufficient proof of something or that we believe that something is a "lie" does not mean that it is so. We can only believe that it is. Do you have any proof that there were no gassings at Dachau? No? Then I could make exactly the same accusations to you that you have made to those who say that there were gassings at Dachau.

The obvious differences between the Holocaust and wmd in Iraq is that there is overwhelming proof that the Holocaust took place, whereas there is a substantial lack of proof that Saddam had wmd - the fact that no substantial proof of wmd has been given does not mean however, that Saddam did not have any, nor does it mean that he did not intend to use wmd against the West. You and others here just don't want to believe that he had any just as you do not want to believe that Hitler carried out a mass genocide... *

The fact that lies were made at Nuremburg does not mean that subsequent and recent research into the Holocaust are lies also. Research that is done into any past event that took place will prove that some things that were stated in the past as being true, were in fact, either lies or mistakes. If you are so disbelieving of anyone who does research into the Holocaust, why don't you go and do some research for yourself, it seems that you will only believe anything that fits your way of thinking, so I'm sure that you could come up with some lies and make them into the truth as you believe that this is what others are doing...

BTW, you keep stating that "we were told there were no gassings" at Dachau. Are you going to tell us who exactly made this statement, or is this yet another example of your erroneous accusations...




* This bit about Saddam came about because I put this quote from Faurrisson

Nowadays everyone should realise that E. Zündel was right and that the story (not history) of Saddam Hussein's alleged WMDs is a mere repetition of the story (not history) of Adolf Hitler's WMDs ("execution gas chambers" and "execution gas vans"). The lie is the same and the liars are the same."

Robert Faurrisson


How can I nail him in front of everyone ?

Malle
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 339
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 6:53 pm
Location: Sweden

Postby Malle » 1 decade 6 years ago (Mon Sep 08, 2003 6:33 pm)

Turpitz wrote:All of us can think what we like about any subject whatsoever but just because we have not been given sufficient proof of something or that we believe that something is a "lie" does not mean that it is so. We can only believe that it is. Do you have any proof that there were no gassings at Dachau? No? Then I could make exactly the same accusations to you that you have made to those who say that there were gassings at Dachau.


Ask him about his proof on the human gas chamber(s) in Dachau.

Turpitz wrote:The obvious differences between the Holocaust and wmd in Iraq is that there is overwhelming proof that the Holocaust took place


Ask him for only one proof that the Holocaust occurred!

Turpitz wrote:The fact that lies were made at Nuremburg does not mean that subsequent and recent research into the Holocaust are lies also.


He admits that there was lies in Nuremberg, cleaver guy! But where were the foundation made for the Holocaust? Nuremberg!!! Before it was only rumours.

Turpitz wrote:BTW, you keep stating that "we were told there were no gassings" at Dachau. Are you going to tell us who exactly made this statement, or is this yet another example of your erroneous accusations...


Use Hannover’s answer in this thread.
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.

TMoran
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 513
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 7:00 pm

Postby TMoran » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:33 am)

Turpitz passes along something about a problem:
A problem from T Moran's literature put on a web-site for believers to ponder:


Turpitz isolates the passed along problem:
Then came 1960 when it was quietly announced unchallenged that there were no gassings carried out at any camps located on German soil and thus with the deletion of that myth so went the hundreds of thousands unto millions of victims into the realms of never were, and so too at the same time was the tacit admittance all the documented evidence was a lie.




Turpitz cites the believer:
Answer from believer:


Quote:
... You also fail to mention that, since 1960, the Institut has performed more research and has come to a new conclustion. They now say:

...a gas chamber was established [in Dachau] in which...a few experimental gassings were undertaken, as more recent research has confirmed.

it won't be the first time, nor the last, that you Holocaust-deniers think that lack of information helps prove the Holocaust did not occur - you are obviously deluded.

=====================================================================

Should the reader go on that or should you come up with the details?

All the talk about "experimental gassings" along with the 'only small scale' gassings as the other excuse we now have that in the Holocaust dogma because no gassings whatsoever is too much of a shock.

The fact is there are all sorts of yarns about mass gassings at camps in Germany and you and your ilk have to now say there were just a few.

As for the comment about "lack of information" isn't a reason for disbelieving? Court cases, murder trials say, rely on information. They require motives, bodies, murder weapons and forensic investigations. If they can't come up with a body (information), the murder weapon (information), forensic evidence (information) then there is no 'information' for the jury to consider.
Last edited by TMoran on Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

TMoran
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 513
Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2002 7:00 pm

Postby TMoran » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:22 am)

Turpitz passed along someone's nonsense:
"Do you have any proof that there were no gassings at Dachau? No?"

Does the person have any proof whatsoever that there were gassings at Dachau?

Lets consider some standards for 'proof'. Lets use U.S. standards.

By now many people in the nation should becoming aware of what's required in order to convict someone for murder going by the number of shows and documentaries about various cases. That would be such things as 'Cold Case Files', 'Court TV' and 'Forensic Files'.

One of the foremost common denominators for these cases is how witness testimonies and even confessions are insufficient for arriving at convictions. The foremost requirement focuses on forensic evidence. A body, a murder weapon, investigation of the scene of the crime. Blood splatter, foot prints, finger prints, tire tracks, ballistics, chemical analysis, DNA, on and on.

Now with that in mind what can be shown to prove there were any gassings whatsoever having taken place at Dachau?

I mean the only thing I have seen so far is some sentence in a letter.

Turpitz
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 975
Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 12:57 pm

Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:10 pm)

Who did 'Quietly announce there were no gassings on German soil' ?

Turpitz
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 975
Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 12:57 pm

Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:44 pm)

Ha Ha, Look what I found.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Dachau/B ... 80198.html

No gassings !!!!!!!!

I am now going to try to find some clap-trap contradictory eye-witness statements that say there was, and ask him how he feels in light of that.

Now I will gather all the information and points raised by everyone, and proceed to verbally crush him in front of everyone.

Did you hear him ? He admitted Nuremburg was a load of lies......Christ !

SergeyRomanov
Member
Member
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:38 pm

Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:23 pm)

Dr. Charles Larson, one of America's leading forensic pathologists, who was assigned to the US Army's Judge Advocate General's Department. As part of a US War Crimes Investigation Team, Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty other German camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for three days by US Army prosecutors.
Dr. Larson's findings?
In an 1980 newspaper interview he said: "What we've heard is that six million Jews were exterminated. Part of that is a hoax." And what part was the hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater" of Allied military operations, confirmed that "never was a case of poison gas uncovered."


I very much doubt that Dr. Larson would use the word "hoax". It's "revisionists'" lexicon.

Besides, Dr. Larson did not deny that he found people poisoned by gas in Dachau:

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/camps/dachau ... er-02.html

The majority died of natural diseases of one kind or the another. However, we did probe into such questions as, 'What happened to those prisoners who became psychotic at Dachau? What did the Gestapo do with them?' Well, they took those people to the crematorium. First, however, they were taken to a big windowless building next to the crematorium where the ceiling was covered with false shower heads. The victims were then ordered to strip and take a 'shower.' Outside the building, guards dropped in cyanide pellets. Then they'd blow the cyanide gas out and remove the bodies next door to the crematorium ovens. I think this is what happened to most of the truly psychotic prisoners and those they considered unruly and unmanageable and who, in the Gestapo's opinion, were incorrigibles. But, in my opinion, only relatively few of the inmates I personally examined at Dachau were murdered in this manner. Still, medical facilities were totally inadequate. When people fell hopelessly ill and death was imminent, and when they grew so weak they could no longer work or function, they were taken to the cyanide room for disposal. The Nazi called them 'mercy killings' because there was no hope of them getting well. Actually, the Germans considered them a liability, and extermination was the answer. ('Crime Doctor,' McCallum & Larson, p. 61. ISBN 0-916076-20-2; Library of Congress Catalog Number: 78-16403)

Turpitz
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 975
Joined: Sun May 11, 2003 12:57 pm

Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:19 pm)

Sergey, what department of the Industry is lying then ?

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Dachau/B ... 80198.html

This link contradicts what your link suggests. I could undertand this situation, if it were between believers and non-believers. But these two (Nikzor/Holocaust memorial museum) are meant to have the same stand-point yet they seem to be utterly confused, and at complete odds to each other. For accusations of the proportions the industry is condemning a whole nation for, surely they should be able to agree on the matter, and evidence should be abundant.

For god's sake, are they this confused with their years of lying that it has come to this dismal position.
There must be something in the old saying:

'To be a good liar, you must have a good memory'

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9975
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:22 pm)

The problem is that there is no proof of gassings at Dachau or anywhere else. And I see Sergey has avoided the other posts in this thread on Dachau.

Larson never autopsied a body he deemed to have been gassed. Simple.
his words again:
..never was a case of poison gas uncovered.


For him to say he believed in gassings is contradictory to his findings and indicative of the propaganda that was and is prevalent. Belief is one thing, proof is quite another.

And ofcourse, the phoney description given of gassing routines contradicts the equally unfounded & desperate fallback notion of a few 'experimental gassings'.

It's apparent the liars can't keep their stories straight.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

SergeyRomanov
Member
Member
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2003 1:38 pm

Postby SergeyRomanov » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:36 pm)

Hannover wrote:The problem is that there is no proof of gassings at Dachau or anywhere else. And I see Sergey has avoided the other posts in this thread on Dachau.


I'm not going to debate about Dachau gassings here.

Larson never autopsied a body he deemed to have been gassed. Simple.
his words again:
..never was a case of poison gas uncovered.


No, his words are:

But, in my opinion, only relatively few of the inmates I personally examined at Dachau were murdered in this manner.


That means that he did "uncover" relatively few cases of poisonings by gas. And that means that he did not say that "never was a case of poison gas uncovered". Ergo, this "interview" is a hoax.

And ofcourse, the phoney description given of gassing routines contradicts the equally unfounded & desperate fallback notion of a few 'experimental gassings'.


But Dr. Larson wasn't an expert on gassings. He was pathologist. We can't expect to hear the perfect description of killing procedure from him.

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9975
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:44 pm)

Sergey says:
But Dr. Larson wasn't an expert on gassings. He was pathologist. We can't expect to hear the perfect description of killing procedure from him.


But yet Sergey says Larson confirms gassings....even though Larson himself said there "never was a case of poison gas uncovered".
Sergey, do not call me a liar, Larson made that statement.

Produce your evidence for alleged gassings at Dachau, no dodging.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot] and 6 guests