Sobibor camp debunked

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Hannover
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Sobibor camp debunked

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Dec 11, 2002 11:06 am)

Here is a story about alleged mass graves found at the alleged 'death camp' at Sobibor. Sobibor, it is alleged, was a site where hundreds thousands of Jews are said to have been gassed with diesel exhaust and cremated (please note that bodies do NOT vaporize when cremated).
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Sobibor/Scotsman.html

Read the story, comments follow:
Edinburgh, Monday, November 26, 2001

Mass Graves Confirm Sobibor Holocaust
Allan Hall
In Berlin
POLISH archaeologists have found mass graves at the Sobibor extermination camp -- damning evidence that gives the lie to Holocaust deniers.
Sobibor, one of the four main extermination camps of the Nazi regime, was evacuated and destroyed on the orders of the SS chief Heinrich Himmler in October 1943, after an uprising by inmates.
The British Holocaust denier David Irving claimed during his libel trial -- which he lost last year -- that he had never heard of the camp. In an exchange with a lawyer, he was asked about the existence of Nazi death camps in Poland and said: "Treblinka I am becoming uncertain about. Sobibor I know nothing of."
Like the three other extermination centres -- Belzec, Treblinka and Chelmno -- Sobibor was situated deep in Poland where an efficient rail network married to remote areas gave the Nazis the perfect means to build their human abattoirs. Sobibor was grassed over and reforested after the SS pulled out and has only recently been under forensic examination.
The discoveries of the seven mass graves will provide invaluable material for Holocaust academics about the numbers who died there.
According to official Polish accounts, 250,000 people were killed in Sobibor, which was opened in May 1942 and lies close to the eastern border with Ukraine. Most victims were from the Warsaw ghetto and died within hours of arriving there, although there was an adjacent work camp holding Russian prisoners of war.
The detainees were told they were going to be deloused and were led to the "showers." These were in fact gas chambers linked up to the exhaust systems of large ***diesel engines*** of the sort used in U-boats: it was a crude method of extermination; the victims, many of them children, often took up to 30 minutes to die.
"We uncovered seven mass graves with an average depth of 15ft. In them there were charred human remains and under them remains in a state of decay. That means that in the final stage the victims were burned," said Andrzej Kola, an archaeologist. He said the largest grave measured 210ft by 75ft, the others 60ft by 75ft.
"We also found a hospital barracks. The people there were probably shot, as we found over 1,800 machine gun cartridges," Mr Kola said. "In the woods we found remnants of barbed wire, which enabled us to reconstruct the boundary of the camp."
Just 52 people survived Sobibor from the thousands sent there. Among them were some of the 300 who broke out of the camp on 14 October, 1943. Eighty were caught soon after escaping, but a handful survived the war.
Wladyslaw Bartoszewski, head of the Council for Remembrance of Struggle and Martyrdom and a former Polish foreign minister, said it was vital to gather evidence to refute the claims of revisionists seeking to deny the Holocaust.
"The work will continue. We have to confirm scientifically that this camp existed. There are crazy voices trying to deny the events of those years," said Mr Bartoszewski, who as a young man helped protect Jews in occupied Poland.
Franz Stangl, who later commanded the Treblinka death camp and was found guilty of helping slaughter 900,000 people there, mentioned the Sobibor camp in Gitta Sereny's 1974 biography Into That Darkness.
Sereny, who interviewed Stangl extensively for the book, wrote that 100,000 people died during the two months after the camp opened, when Stangl was posted there. The gas chamber equipment broke down and did not resume work until October.
A 1965 memorial at Sobibor reads: "In this place from May 1942 until October 1943 there existed a Hitler extermination camp. At this camp 250,000 Russian, Polish, Jewish and Gipsy prisoners were murdered."
In all six million Jews and a further six million "subhuman" enemies of the Third Reich were killed in the extermination plan. Although Auschwitz in Poland claimed the most -- more than a million -- it was not solely a death camp as prisoners worked in factories adjacent to the extermination centre.


Here we go again, the fraud is obvious.

- Where's the verifiable study?
Let's see data, let's see the dig, let's see the methodology for review...let's see a real, legit study; not unverified claims without proof.

- 'mass' graves?
Who, how & how many? People died from a variety of causes during the war; in the work camps disease was the prime cause. No indication of murder here, just graves that contained some cremated bodies (important with contagious diseases). How many bodies were there? Anything that would point to 250,000?...as is the standard assertion

- cartridges?
1. Yes, there was a war on and the soldiers at Sobibor had cartridges. Were they German cartridges? Were they spent?
2. Sobibor was used by the Germans to salvage captured Soviet ammo

- hospital?
For a death camp? That contradicts the story.

- Stangl? Sereny?
see Sereny's 'interview' debunked here: http://www.ukar.org/sereny02.shtml

- the 'denier' canard
No one denies the camp was there. It's the allegations that we question.

- gas chambers?
Where's the evidence for this?

- Jews were predominant victims?
So typical. That's said without establishing that the allegations about the camp are true in the 1st place.

- Jedwabne?
What they convienently fail to mention is that it's now known that it was NOT the Germans who did the killing (they were originally blamed.... like what's now admitted was a communist slaughter at Katyn Forest). What they don't say is that the numbers alleged about Jedwabne, as is usual, were highly exaggerated and more that likely caused by local resentment of Jewish communist butchery.

It's business as usual for the 'holocaust' Industry. They say anything and think they can get away with it.

additional observer comments:
It appears that once the bubbles of air have been cut out from the report, archaeologists have excavated seven mass graves with an average depth of 15 feet. What, precisely, are we supposed to deduce from this figure? All we learn from it is that someone has dug a hole, or a series of holes, whose depth averages 15 feet. (Sorry to belabour the obvious; but so often, it's the obvious that seems to elude so many people when reading reports of this kind.) So what?

Since the late 17th Century, single graves in Britain have been traditionally dug to a depth of 6 feet. (For each body interred, roughly 108 cubic feet of earth is displaced.) But the report is careful to avoid any figure relating to the volume of contents of each hole.

Andrezj Kola is quoted in the report as saying, "We also found a hospital barracks." Did they really? What physical evidence of these alleged barracks actually remained? A few pieces of wood? Stencilled with a Red Cross, perhaps? Nope, none of that. That's not what Mr Kola is saying. What he's really saying is that they've dug up a tract of land (of unspecified size), from whose soil (from an unspecified depth) they've managed to unearth the nice round figure of 1,800 used machine-gun cartridges (of unspecified age).

What confirms the existence of a hospital barracks somewhere within this location, then? Well, someone said there was one. Hey, what more forensic evidence do you need?
I'm still waiting, rather impatiently, for evidence rather than conjecture.


absurd statements about Sobibor:

According to alleged eyewitness, Alexander Pechersky, gassings at Sobibor took place via a black heavy substance which exited in spirals from holes in the roof. Then the floor of the gas chamber opened
up, and the bodies fell directly into wagons placed in the basement.


from Entertainment Weekly:

"At the concentration camp in Sobibor, Poland, the Nazis assembled squawking schools of geese to cover the shrieks of inmates who were being gassed."

Another alleged eyewitness, Zelda Metz, talks of death via chlorine, and added:
“then the floor opened automatically. The bodies fell into wagons on a railroad track which passed through the gas chambers and took the corpses to the ovens.”

I notice that in an alleged excavation there is no mention of gas chambers with opening floors, in fact they give no evidence for gas chambers at all. What happened to the chlorine according to the alleged eyewitness? They give no evidence for the alleged 250,000. They give no evidence as to who, how, & how many were in the alleged mass graves. There is no verifiable study to consult, only an assertion of one.

As for Sereny’s fraudulent interview of Stangl, see:
http://www.ukar.org/sereny02.shtml
==================
in addition:
In a letter dated July 15, 1943, the head of the SS concentration camp system, Oswald Pohl, explained to Himmler that a center for dismantling captured Soviet ammunition could be set up at Sobibor without having to transform it into a concentration camp. Sobibor would remain a transit camp with a special section for dismantling ammunition.
This correspondence (Nuremberg document file NO- 482) clearly shows that neither Himmler nor Pohl regarded Sobibor as an "extermination center." These documents simply cannot be reconciled with the Holocaust portrayal of Sobibor.
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p173_Weber.html

- Hannover

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:05 pm)

Sobibor is a great example. It's really not that difficult to debunk the scam that laws require we accept and judeo-supremacists demand we bow to.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 3 years ago (Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:59 pm)

Not to mention that Kola was originally handpicked by the US holocaust memorial museum. Similar to Ron Lauder's project at Auschwitz, they get their own people in there before an objective person can go in and do a study.

And I see in the article how the Nazis allegedly dug an "average depth of 15 feet."

Yet Pechersky's group had to be careful digging past 5 feet (1.5 meters.) They were around the graves that all the bodies were being buried in that the Germans were supposedly killing, yet didn't know the water line. hmm. Read about their, later aborted, escape tunnel:

According to the plan, (the tunnel's) height and width would have to be 75 X 75 centimeters and it would need to be 80 centimeters beneath the earth's surface, so that it would not touch the mine holes. It could not go any deeper, because there was a danger that it might strike water.

Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka
Yitzak Arad, page 311


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