Krema IV, "Sonderkommando revolt"

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jnovitz
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Re: Krema IV, "Sonderkommando revolt"

Postby jnovitz » 7 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:48 pm)

In the Frankfurt Trial DVD the 12 October order is referred to and Hoecker identifies it as being signed by him. The text itself is not given. The fact that Hoecker identifies the signature as his is not really suprising as the order would have had many duplicated copies anyway, presumably with his signature duplicated on each one. Unless it is claimed that this is absolute original order which he signed.

If I understand correctly the order was part of a small portofolio of documents introduced into the trial by Friedrich Karl Kaul, the lawyer supplied by the East German government.



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Hans
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Re: Krema IV, "Sonderkommando revolt"

Postby Hans » 7 years 4 months ago (Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:32 am)

jnovitz wrote:In the Frankfurt Trial DVD the 12 October order is referred to and Hoecker identifies it as being signed by him. The text itself is not given. The fact that Hoecker identifies the signature as his is not really suprising as the order would have had many duplicated copies anyway, presumably with his signature duplicated on each one.


Well, the information you provide is quite usefull actually. So we know there is really the signature of Höcker on the documents (plural, because there are at least two full exemplars of them, one in APMO and one in Koblenz, and one incomplete in Munich). Of course the orders were hectographed as there were 106 exemplars sent to the various SS offices. So we can already conclude that that the person who has made this document has placed exactly the correct signature on it, and not some bogus handwritting. Or the other way round, we are losing to possibility to show the document is a forgery based on signature identification, which would have been very powerfull. A document with a wrong signature is really problematic and could indicate a post-war forgery. But that's not the case here. A document with exactly the correct signature as recognized by the person is not at all problematic. So what is left which would indicate that those three exemplars of the order are not authentic and were not authored by none other than Baer in October 1944? Absolutely nothing. :(

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Re: Krema IV, "Sonderkommando revolt"

Postby bridgebuilder » 7 years 4 months ago (Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:20 am)

The fact that the material passed through a Stalinist funnel first must surely entirely destroy its probative value. That the NKVD had a forgery department and that it manufactured fake material including the nonsense on Katyn through to claims of American germ warfare in Korea and later, is no longer disputable. NOTHING that might passed through Russian hands is admissable evidence. That includes just about everything used against German officers at Nuremberg, which officers were condemned by Soviet evidence and a panel of judges, one third of which had deliberately lied about Katyn. The judgements were totally corrupt from go to whoa, and it is a sign of intellectual bad faith that anyone takes them seriously at all or presumes to think that the evidence supporting those corrupt judgments needs refutation. This is not a matter of the evidence being more likely tainted than not, but that it holus-bolus can't count as evidence in the first place. NONE of it should have been admitted to a genuine court.

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jnovitz
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Re: Krema IV, "Sonderkommando revolt"

Postby jnovitz » 7 years 4 months ago (Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:12 pm)

Hans wrote:
jnovitz wrote:In the Frankfurt Trial DVD the 12 October order is referred to and Hoecker identifies it as being signed by him. The text itself is not given. The fact that Hoecker identifies the signature as his is not really suprising as the order would have had many duplicated copies anyway, presumably with his signature duplicated on each one.


Well, the information you provide is quite usefull actually. So we know there is really the signature of Höcker on the documents (plural, because there are at least two full exemplars of them, one in APMO and one in Koblenz, and one incomplete in Munich). Of course the orders were hectographed as there were 106 exemplars sent to the various SS offices. So we can already conclude that that the person who has made this document has placed exactly the correct signature on it, and not some bogus handwritting. Or the other way round, we are losing to possibility to show the document is a forgery based on signature identification, which would have been very powerfull. A document with a wrong signature is really problematic and could indicate a post-war forgery. But that's not the case here. A document with exactly the correct signature as recognized by the person is not at all problematic. So what is left which would indicate that those three exemplars of the order are not authentic and were not authored by none other than Baer in October 1944? Absolutely nothing. :(


I have no idea how many copies there are, I only know the ones provided to the Frankfurt Trial by Kaul are clearly stated as photocopies in the trial.

That tends to suggest that back then there were no contemperanous copies of the order found in Koblenz or Munich. Only the version supplied by the Russians (ref. cited by Mattogno) that now resides in the AMPO.

Incidently, there is frequently testimony about some SS being killed in air raids, although not on 7 October, are these mentioned in the other orders?

I am presuming that you deliberately misquoted both signatures so someone called say "Oh look how easy it is to make types" - Hoaxsters are depressingly stupid in their stratagems

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Hans
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Re: Krema IV, "Sonderkommando revolt"

Postby Hans » 7 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 15, 2010 1:30 pm)

jnovitz wrote:Incidently, there is frequently testimony about some SS being killed in air raids, although not on 7 October, are these mentioned in the other orders?


There is one report of SS being killed in an air raid in the order of the commandant of 6 September 1944 of Monowitz:

Code: Select all

1. In treuer Pflicht starben den Heldentod:
       SS-Strm. Karl Seifert
       SS-Schtz. Viktor Kopyto

Sie gaben anläßlich der letzten Terrorangriffe auf Oberschlesien ein hervoragendes Beispiel unerschrockenen Einsatzes bis zum Letzten.
Wir wollen ihrer stets in Ehren gedenken.

[...]

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Reinhard
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Re: Krema IV, "Sonderkommando revolt"

Postby Reinhard » 7 years 4 months ago (Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:06 pm)

@ Hans:

There was another heavy air attack on Auschwitz-Monowitz on Sept 13th, 1944, when 12 men of the SS have been killed:

http://meidling-forum.at/forum/viewtopic.php?p=26478&sid=e5d924c11130fb003f0adb2d7201f3b5#26478
And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed, if all records told the same tale, then the lie passed into history and became truth. »Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past.«
Orwell 1984

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Jerzy Ulicki-Rek
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Re: Krema IV, "Sonderkommando revolt"

Postby Jerzy Ulicki-Rek » 7 years 3 days ago (Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:38 am)

"Only a fraction, say 100 or so were actually working at the ovens. The rest was employed at some other place at the extermination process, including at the open air incineration cites and the homocidal gas-chambers."

Open air incinerations?

Could you help me to get the permission from the current Auschwitz commandant to do some diggings maybe?
I asked many times and didn't get even one word in response.

Jerzy Ulicki-Rek

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Re: Krema IV, "Sonderkommando revolt"

Postby athenarena » 6 years 11 months ago (Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:32 pm)

There was a movie made about this revolt made in 2001 called the Grey Zone. I have watched it, it is quite a good movie although historically accurate I cannot say as I do not know much about the revolt but from what I have been reading here, it seems to be. Also it does not have Julia Roberts in it so that is a good sign.

Here is the imdb page for it: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0252480/

NSNO,
Athenarena

PS. There is a sub plotline that is a bit ridiculous but it mentions it on the page under storyline which is about a quarter of the way down the page.


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