If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions go?

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Balsamo
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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Balsamo » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon May 16, 2011 7:12 pm)

Skeptical said:

I've never understood why there was so much name changing among jews in the post war period?


Very good question!

Balsamo,

Considering that you, nor anyone else, can show us that 'Jews were exterminated by the Nazis', your question is illogical. Some would simply say that since it's known that millions were not exterminated as alleged, the 'where did they go' question is senseless, and yes, a canard.

The mere fact that 'holocaust' celebrities such as Yehuda Bauer, a former head of the Yad Vashem 'holocaust' Theme Park make statements that the alleged number of Jews under occupation were much lower than what other Believers state, and the fact that he makes it clear that the Wannsee Conference was not what is claimed should give anyone pause. It is the endless conflicts within the tales spun by those that profit from the 'holocaust' that make Revisionists simply messengers.

What can be shown with ease is that the Jews in question were not 'exterminated' as alleged, very simple. Until such time that Jewish supremacists can prove their allegations of '6M, gas chambers, and massive pit shootings', they haven't a chance in rational debates.

Remember, Revisionists are former Believers.

Regards, Hannover


Hannover,
Ok, then, let's assume that you are right on principle, that there never was a Holocaust per se. So, no 6.000.000, no gas chambers until proven, and "less massive shooting than believed. Let's say thus that you won the debate. Our theoretical position is now that the Holocaust as presented for years has collapsed. Ok ? In consequence of this victory of revisionism, History has to be rewritten, you'll agree
So what comes next!

Again, it is well known and not denied (even by most deniers) that trainload of Jews did arrive at Treblinka and other "so called Reinhard" camps. Unless proven, there are no records of any trainload of Jews departing from there for another destination. What is the Revisionist position starting from there? What did happen with them. How would you write history starting from there and deal with some logical and common sense issues that come with it?

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Malle » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon May 16, 2011 9:18 pm)

Balsamo, to answer your question, while your theory has the historians, the laws (at least in Europe) and all dumb citizens in the west behind you, you could ask this question as you won’t get several years of imprisonment like the revisionist does.

Every court historian will tell you that no Dutch Jew was transferred far east to the border of Poland, as you have probably seen on TV. Well, I have some news for you. While the court historian are at sleep, the revisionist like Jürgen Graf, Thomas Kues, Carlo Mattogno are writing Sobibór: Holocaust Propaganda and Reality and did you know what they found out?
On 16 April 1943 the Vilna Jew Herman Kruk noted in his diary that “a rumor is circulating that there are about 19,000 Dutch Jews in Vievis”. Vievis is a small town between Vilna and Kovno, which during the years of German occupation was the location of a Jewish labor camp. On the same day Kruk wrote under the heading “More about the Dutch Jews” that he had “succeeded in getting a Jewish sign [evidently a cloth Star of David] and a copy of the order of the Reichskommissar for the Occupied Netherlands about Jewish property.” Two weeks later, on 30 April 1943, Kruk wrote in his diary that “carloads filled with goods from the Dutch Jews are in the Vilna railroad station”. Furniture taken from these trains had been brought to workshops in the Vilna ghetto, where documents written in Dutch were found by the workers. Since there is no reason on earth to believe that Kruk, a prominent member of the Vilna ghetto community, made up this story, it must be taken as an important piece of evidence in support of the revisionist transit camp hypothesis. Large transports of “foreign” Jews to the Vilna area in the spring of 1943 is also mentioned in the diary of the Jewish partisan fighter Aba Gefen (entry for 16 May 1943), as well as by a news notice published in the Polish underground newspaper Biuletyn Informacyjny on 6 May 1943. There are also several testimonies confirming the presence of Dutch Jews in Minsk in 1942-43.

So, I'm challenging you, put up your best evidence to refute the evidence that 19,000 Dutch Jew's weren’t in the Vilna area, and that’s a long way from the Polish border.
I must be a mushroom - because everyone keeps me in the dark and feeds me with lots of bullshit.

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby skeptical » 8 years 10 months ago (Mon May 16, 2011 10:42 pm)

The odd thing about the claims and counterclaims is that everybody concerned seems to want to know as much as possible about this history. I think that the "believers" have their motives for "believing" it might be as simple as honoring their fathers and mothers.... they were raised to believe.
The odd thing is that the believers have managed to construct an intellectual vacuum around this history. A silence protected by force of law.
We are 70 years on and we still can't review the storehouses of documents... noone is allowed to look under ground or even simply check if the ground has been disturbed..... the simple human desire to know what happened, curiousity itself has been damned. Perfectly fine people are rotting in jail for simply asking questions.
The folks that argue the believers case seem to gloss over the fact that arguing the case for believing is a paying job and asking any questions is dangerous for your physical safety.
I think that this state of affairs, more than any bit of this or that "evidence" tells the tale here.
How can you argue the case and present "train schedules" as evidence when you know that if any evidence which opposed your assertion were sitting in those secret archives we would never hear about it.
There has to come a moment, someday, when the future just washes this whole argument into irrelevance and real unfettered historical research takes place. A moment when people needn't fear being jailed for speaking their minds.
I hope that, that day, comes soon.

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Balsamo » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue May 17, 2011 12:12 am)

Malle,

First, thanks for your answer. You are the first to address the issue.
But as i did not express any theory, you'll understand that i can respond to your "changeling".
As it is now past midnight for me, i will be more profilic tomorrow.

Skeptical,

I am with you at 100% concerning those laws, which are an insutlt to everyone's intelligence. Paranoid people are committing paranoid acts, and it is the whole world society who pays the price.
But i am affraid, you surestimate the protections around those documents, even if it is true that it is against somes laws (and in some countries) to "read them" the wrong way. As for the trainload, they are even confirmed by Mattogno.

But the same it's time for me to go to sleep.

Good night

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Kageki » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue May 17, 2011 8:30 am)

I haven't gotten through the whole thing, but here's a massive essay from Thomas Kues exactly on this:
http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/arch ... d_jews.php
http://www.inconvenienthistory.com/arch ... jews_2.php

While the refutation presented by the revisionists alone is enough to make the orthodox “Holocaust“ story collapse like a house of cards, the proponents and defenders of the officially sanctioned exterminationist hypothesis, while doing their best to counter the revisionist onslaught with censorship and various damage control tactics, keep repeating over and over the same question: If the Jews were not gassed, where did they go?

One might argue that the revisionists have no obligation to answer this question. From a moral standpoint this argument is fully valid. As in a court of law, the exterminationists must prove that the crime they allege really took place – the burden of proof is on the accuser. Moreover, since the revisionists have proven that the crime – i.e. the mass gassings – did not take place, they have no moral obligation to search for the missing, alleged victim of the fictional crime. On the other hand, from a scientific viewpoint the question posed by the exterminationists is also fully valid, even if it usually uttered as a merely rhetorical question and part of anti-revisionist propaganda.

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Kageki » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue May 17, 2011 9:19 am)

Some were transferred OUT of places like Sobibor?

http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/t/9.html
In that period, deportations of Dutch Jews to Sobibór took place: on July 2, a transport with 2,397 persons arrived, on July 9 another with 2,417.[756] That Sobibór had the function of a transit camp also emerges from the statements of several former Dutch-Jewish deportees:

Cato Polak, deported on March 10, 1943, remained in Sobibór one or two hours and was then transferred to Lublin with 30 women and 12 men. They returned home to Holland by way of Trawniki - Auschwitz - Bergen-Belsen - Theresienstadt.[757]

Bertha Jansen-Ensel and Judith Eliazar, who had arrived in Sobibór on March 10, 1943, were likewise transferred to Lublin. Both returned to their homeland via Auschwitz. Although they had alluded to gas chambers and cremations, they declared:[758]

"Sobibor was no camp, rather a transit camp."

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 10 months ago (Tue May 17, 2011 9:36 am)

Balsamo wrote:Skeptical said:
I've never understood why there was so much name changing among jews in the post war period?

Very good question!

Does this help? I posted it earlier in this thread.
- Many people who lost touch with relatives would each believe the other dead. Many changed names, in America, Israel and East Europe (see the list of Polish state security police here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_o ... _personnel. Rudolf Vrba, who allegedly blew the gaff on Auschwitz, was born Walter Rosenberg.

There you have plenty of Yiddish names changed to Polish. I don't think there is any dispute that many immigrants to Israel change Yiddish names to Hebrew and that immigrants to the States and the UK often anglicise their names. Harry Dexter White, for example, and Michael Howard, Philip Green, Alan Sugar, Melanie Philips, Stephen Pollard and the Millliband brothers will do as UK examples.

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Balsamo » 8 years 10 months ago (Thu May 19, 2011 12:20 pm)

Kageki,

thanks

I had some computer issues lately...i'll read Thomas Kues stuff and come back

Kingfisher,

Still the question is why they did change their names in the very short period after WW2. In the case of Vrba...does this name have any connection with Rosenberg...like Rosenberg = Rosemountain, for exemple...Though i could understand that some of them did not want to bare a name that sounded German

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Eric Hunt » 8 years 10 months ago (Thu May 19, 2011 3:21 pm)

More than six million were liberated - that's "where they went"

- Image
Watch THE TREBLINKA ARCHAEOLOGY HOAX

http://holocausthoaxmuseum.com/treblinka-archaeology-hoax

Semitism = Jewish Supremacism

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Hannover » 8 years 10 months ago (Thu May 19, 2011 7:03 pm)

Eric,
What's the source of your news clipping? Thanks.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Eric Hunt » 8 years 10 months ago (Thu May 19, 2011 8:24 pm)

Hannover wrote:Eric,
What's the source of your news clipping? Thanks.

- Hannover


The New York Times - May 20, 1945

Image

Of course, we can ignore the multiple claims of Jews being burned alive, in ovens, right, promoters?

Because that didn't happen, right, promoters?
Watch THE TREBLINKA ARCHAEOLOGY HOAX

http://holocausthoaxmuseum.com/treblinka-archaeology-hoax

Semitism = Jewish Supremacism

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Hektor » 7 years 6 months ago (Sun Sep 23, 2012 12:00 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:...
Lastly, many surely did die. This was a war. People get killed in wars: they die in the armed forces and partisan movements; they are killed in air raids; they die of starvation, disease and exposure. People die in concentration camps, British in South Africa, Spanish in Cuba and German in Europe, of disease, murder (often by other prisoners) and general bad conditions. Jews were certainly targeted in the anti-partisan operations where the Germans did kill civilians as reprisals and to empty the pond in which the partisan fish swam, just like the Americans in Vietnam, the French in Algeria and so on.....

There is one important difference. The second world war was for the Germans a war of national survival. The other wars you mentioned were merely colonial or post-colonial wars and no lethal threats to those nations.

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Kingfisher » 7 years 6 months ago (Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:16 pm)

Hektor
Of course this is a significant difference between the wars, but I don't see how this affects what I said. This was one point of several in an answer to the question in the thread title.

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Balsamo » 7 years 6 months ago (Mon Sep 24, 2012 1:49 pm)

Hektor wrote:
Kingfisher wrote:...
Lastly, many surely did die. This was a war. People get killed in wars: they die in the armed forces and partisan movements; they are killed in air raids; they die of starvation, disease and exposure. People die in concentration camps, British in South Africa, Spanish in Cuba and German in Europe, of disease, murder (often by other prisoners) and general bad conditions. Jews were certainly targeted in the anti-partisan operations where the Germans did kill civilians as reprisals and to empty the pond in which the partisan fish swam, just like the Americans in Vietnam, the French in Algeria and so on.....

There is one important difference. The second world war was for the Germans a war of national survival. The other wars you mentioned were merely colonial or post-colonial wars and no lethal threats to those nations.



Exept that "normally" war between nations opposes their respective army. Gathering ennemy's nationals is also common - the way they do it depending on their values, culture, and international agreements. During WW1, All Germans were ordered to leave Italy. They were given a couple of days. As WW2 came as a suprise, such dispositions could not have been taken. All those measures tend to be ended when hostilities cease.
One tend to forget that the first targeted Jews were also german, austrian citizens. The jews in Poland were Polish nationals and the way they were treated had nothing to do with their country still being at war with Germany. Non jewish Poles were not treated the same way.
The case is even less defendable when talking about the "Neutral States" like Belgium, Luxembourg, and the Netherlands against which no declaration of war had been issued. The treatment of the Dutch Jews is undefendable by any preexistant customary laws. It is pure criminal acts ! Especially in the case of the Dutch Jews who enjoyed 3 centuries of complete freedom and were therefore completly assimilated...they were DUTCH ! They had nothing in common with their eastern counterparts. Even if they were sent to Vilna, why didn't they come back? Don't tell me they choosed to stay in those great socialist countries ? and Israel were not easily available until 1948.

As for the Eric Hunt article, it speaks about all foreign workers not only the Jews, and it only shows that the press had an affection for the 6.000.000 more than anyone else...

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Re: If the Holocaust were a hoax, where did all the millions

Postby Hannover » 7 years 6 months ago (Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:30 pm)

Balsamo tries to make points by stating that he feels deportations of Jews were criminal acts, while ignoring the fact that the Germans deported a lower percentage of Jews than the Americans deported Japanese Americans. Deportation was standard policy of the Allies during WWII. Deportations are not under debate, the alleged "extermination" of the Jews certainly is.

And still, Balsamo presents no proof for the alleged 'gas chambers' which are absurdly claimed to be the main method of "extermination". Why not?

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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