Intro & Let's Talk About Eichmann

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trtsk
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Intro & Let's Talk About Eichmann

Postby trtsk » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:07 am)

I'll make clear a few things before I begin this thread.

I'm Jewish. I won't be baited so don't try it.

I'm also a Zionist. Ditto.

I also believe in standard Holocaust history. I have been lurking on this forum for some time and I have gotten some sense of its dynamic. There seems to be a dogpile effect when a person like me comes into such a forum. I also see a concerted effort to always move a discussion away from the original point and onto the issue of gas chambers. I don't mind talking about gas chambers, but all in good time.

For now, I'd like to talk about Adolf Eichmann. I've got a copy of Eichmann Interrogated and Eichmann in Jerusalem in front of me. I also have in the mail coming to me the German edition of Eichmann's memoirs but I'll need time to work from them as my German ist nicht gut.

So here's an opening volley. Eichmann pled not guilty in Jerusalem. In fact he pled in exactly the same manner as Goring at Nuremberg: Not guilty in the sense of the indictment. Dr. Servatius, Eichmann's attorney who was paid for by the State of Israel, told the press that Eichmann felt "guilty before God but not before the law."

Question Number One therefore is this. What did Eichmann feel guilty for?

Tom

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Re: Intro & Let's Talk About Eichmann

Postby Hyman » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:40 am)

trtsk wrote:I'll make clear a few things before I begin this thread.

I'm Jewish. I won't be baited so don't try it.

I'm also a Zionist. Ditto.

I also believe in standard Holocaust history. I have been lurking on this forum for some time and I have gotten some sense of its dynamic. There seems to be a dogpile effect when a person like me comes into such a forum. I also see a concerted effort to always move a discussion away from the original point and onto the issue of gas chambers. I don't mind talking about gas chambers, but all in good time.

For now, I'd like to talk about Adolf Eichmann. I've got a copy of Eichmann Interrogated and Eichmann in Jerusalem in front of me. I also have in the mail coming to me the German edition of Eichmann's memoirs but I'll need time to work from them as my German ist nicht gut.

So here's an opening volley. Eichmann pled not guilty in Jerusalem. In fact he pled in exactly the same manner as Goring at Nuremberg: Not guilty in the sense of the indictment. Dr. Servatius, Eichmann's attorney who was paid for by the State of Israel, told the press that Eichmann felt "guilty before God but not before the law."

Question Number One therefore is this. What did Eichmann feel guilty for?

Tom


Could be he felt guilty for the persecution of the Jews and their brutal treatment, but not for the attempted genocide he was charged with.
Last edited by Hyman on Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:42 am)

Oh please, no one is going to 'bait you'. Sounds like so much ADL silliness.

So then....no gas chambers, no physical evidence, and absurd anti-science assertions = the end of the Eichmann canard, let's face it.

but....a few points about Eichmann:
Eichmann claims to have witnessed mass slaughter on a grand scale at Auschwitz in the fall of 1941, where the camp commandant, Rudolf Hoess, informed him that the great, factory- like buildings, the chimneys of which belch smoke, are "working to capacity: Ten thousand!" This months before the Auschwitz crematoria were constructed, let alone in use.

Eichmann talks of Treblinka - but then he's not sure if it's Treblinka - where gassings are being carried out with a submarine engine; places near Minsk and Lemberg, where mass shootings are taking place (including one mass grave from which "blood was gushing out ... like a geyser," although it had already been filled in); and again Treblinka (this time there's no doubt: phony railway station and all) where gassings are being carried out with the insecticide Zyklon-B. The gushering geysers are a nice touch, and jibe well with the propensity of other "Holocaust" mass graves to quake and spew forth blood, sometimes for months after the killings; Treblinka, however, is supposed not to have been functioning as an extermination center until the summer of 1942, nor was Zyklon-B ever claimed to have been employed there.

Eichmann even offers substantiation for the six-million claim-he says he's worked out the numbers from reading ***Jewish almanacs***, he persistently rejects the accusation that he was the organizer of the "Final Solution" or the "flywheel of the extermination machine." Indeed, Eichmann is allowed to score occasionally some telling points. Why carry several weeks provisions, footgear, and blankets, as one deportation order provides, if the deportees are to be gassed as soon as they alight, is Eichmann's plaintive question, to which Less has no good reply.

from: Eichmann Interrogated: Transcripts from the Archives of the Israeli Police
edited by Jochen von Lang in collaboration with Claus Sibyll. Translated from the German by Ralph Manheim. Farrar, Straus, and Giroux, New York, 1983, 293pp
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:14 am)

It should be noted that Eichmann's defense counsel was not permitted to speak with his client privately, and that he was not granted access to the transcripts of Eichmann's interrogations - show trial methods reminiscent of the IMT (Nuremberg).

=====================
Taken from the recently released Eichmann 'diaries' :

[5] AE: 1 P.S "It just isn't so easy as a prisoner to give a manuscript of oneself, which is then first submitted to censorship; one doesn't feel free enough; this must be taken into account. If it were only a reader's censorship; or if I were back, then it would surely be easier for me as a writer".

= "Es ist eben doch nicht so leicht, als Gefangener ein Manuskript von sich zu geben, welches dann erst noch einer Zensur unterzogen wird; da fühlt man sich beim Schreiben nicht frei genug; dies muß man berücksichtigen. Wäre es nur eine „Lektorenzensur"; oder wäre ich zurück, dann würde es sicherlich für mich als Skribent einfacher sein."
===============================================

The story of six million Jews exterminated during the war was given final authority at the Nuremberg Trials by the statement of Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl. He had been an assistant of Eichmann's, but was in fact a rather strange person in the service of American Intelligence who had written several books under the pseudonym of Walter Hagen. Hoettl also worked for Soviet espionage, collaborating with two Jewish emigrants from Vienna, Perger and Verber, who acted as U.S. officers during the preliminary inquiries of the Nuremberg Trials.
It is remarkable that the testimony of this highly dubious person Hoettl is said to constitute the only "proof' regarding the murder of six million Jews. In his affidavit of November 26th, 1945 he stated, not that he knew but that Eichmann had "told him" in August 1944 in Budapest that a total of 6 million Jews had been exterminated.
Needless to say, Eichmann never corroborated this claim at his trial. Hoettl was working as an American spy during the whole of the latter period of the war, and it is therefore very odd indeed that he never gave the slightest hint to the Americans of a policy to murder Jews, even though he worked directly under Heydrich and Eichmann.
=========================================
It gets worse:

Hoettl later confided in a published letter that the '6,000,000' account was a lie....which he had claimed to have heard from Eichmann.
=========================
Tom Segrev, Jewish reporter:
"The government of Israel has always been afraid that the Eichmann book would compete with the verdict of the court"

After Gideon Hausner, the prosecutor in the Eichmann trial, cautioned that publication of the memoirs could compete with the verdict, Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion ordered the manuscript locked away for 15 years at which time that decision would be reviewed. "But the decision was not reviewed and the document continued to remain under lock.

Eichmann refers to some sketches and diagrams. One of the diagrams outlines the Gestapo hierarchy with Eichmann being near the bottom.

See: Los Angeles Times, Feb.29, 2000

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby trtsk » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:06 am)

Hannover, we're going to get along a lot better if you don't make unfounded accusations. I'm not affiliated with the ADL. I did not refuse to speak about gas chambers - just not yet. I am not "anti-science." I've seen plenty of baiting in this forum as a lurker. You launched a personal attack against me from the get-go. This is against the rules of this forum. Please refrain from doing so in the future.

You then did what I thought you would do. You posted articles by Ted O'Keefe and Richard Harwood to make some point or other about Eichmann. My question of my first post remained unanswered by you.

So here's what I am going to do. I'm going to ask you a direct question. I've gotten one answer so far but now I'm going to ask you to answer this direct question and remind you that the rules that you have already broken with me also dictate no "dodging."

So. What did Eichmann feel guilty about in Jerusalem? As Dr. Servatius said, he did not feel guilty before the court but he did feel guilty before God. Why?

I expect a direct answer to this question. Then we can get into Harwood, O'Keefe and I can check their sources in Eichmann Interrogated. But I asked that we take a slow approach and not a dogpile approach.

Please proffer me some civility.

Tom

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:29 am)

Sorry pal, but you started on the wrong foot with:
I'll make clear a few things before I begin this thread.

I'm Jewish. I won't be baited so don't try it.

I'm also a Zionist. Ditto.

Such chutzpah, you initiated the 'accusations' and then blame someone else. Looks like you were spoiling for a fight to me. Civility? Give it and you will get it. Shall we start again?

He probably felt guilty for allowing himself to be kidnapped by the Israelis.

This thread cannot be all about what you want. You want to debate Eichmann but don't want to show proof for the phoney 'gas chambers' that Eichmann has fraudulently been associated with.

Again, no gas chambers mean that asssertions about Eichmann are necessarily false.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby trtsk » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:01 pm)

Such chutzpah, you initiated the 'accusations' and then blame someone else. Looks like you were spoiling for a fight to me. Civility? Give it and you will get it. Shall we start again?


I made no accusations. I stated that I have seen Jew-baiting here and a lot of bashing of Zionism and that I wasn't going to rise to the bait. If you disagree that there is Zionist-bashing and Jew-baiting here then I don't think you're seeing the full picture.

He probably felt guilty for allowing himself to be kidnapped by the Israelis.


Are you serious? Unfortunately I'm planning for a house full of company through Friday but I can assure you that he admitted to being an accomplice to mass murder. Why would he admit to such a thing? And if he had admitted such a thing then wouldn't it make sense that he'd feel guilty about it? Why would a person feel guilty about something that they didn't have any control over like being kidnapped? He didn't allow it to happen. He was caught by surprise. Your answer doesn't make any sense, Hannover.

This thread cannot be all about what you want. You want to debate Eichmann but don't want to show proof for the phoney 'gas chambers' that Eichmann has fraudulently been associated with.


I never said I wasn't going to provide proof for gas chambers. I said all in good time. The thread can't be all about what I want but it also is not according to the guidelines to go off-track. I am trying to establish the facts of what Eichmann said in interrogation, at trial and in his memoirs. Then based on the facts of what he said I'd like to then entertain ideas of why he said what he said.

But guilty for being caught by the Israelis? I don't buy it. I doubt anyone else here does either.

Again, no gas chambers mean that asssertions about Eichmann are necessarily false.


The problem here is that you are assuming there were no gas chambers. We can get to that later or in another thread. I am of course assuming there were gas chambers. But the key for right now is that what you say are assertions about Eichmann are actually quotes from the man himself.

Direct question to Hannover. Why would Eichmann admit to being an accomplice to mass murder?

Tom

PS, I'm not your pal, please don't call me that.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:18 pm)

Zionist bashing? You bet. Look at shitty little parasite Israel and their ethnic cleansing genocidal policies. And my tax dollars pay for it. But we're off topic here.

I have shown you just a few examples of absurd and laughable Eichmann 'testimony', his nonsense just doesn't wash no matter how you slice it.

Who knows or who cares what Eichmann 'felt guilty' about, maybe he defaulted on a loan. It's merely idle speculation since there were no gas chambers and 6,000,000.

Why did people 'confess' to witchcraft? Why were there 'eyewitnesses' to witchcraft and sorcery? Why are there hundreds of thousands of UFO/alien abduction 'witnesses', 'survivors' & 'testimonies'.

When a man is kidnapped, held in solitary confinement, and fighting for his life it's not difficult to see why he would say just about anything. Unless it can be supported by physical evidence, logic, and rational thought, you have nothing.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Secret Anne X » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:48 pm)

Hi,

I have to greet trtsk and thank him for being willing to discuss his views here.

I think he is wrong, but I also don't think it makes all that much difference.

Let's remember that everything we argue about happened 60 years ago, or close to it.

So let's all calm down.

As for Eichmann, let us keep in mind that there is little that he actually saw, and a lot of that was wrong. He saw dead Jews. He was apparently at a shooting party somewhere in occupied Russia. He oversaw the deportations of maybe two million Jews, "many" who died "for one reason or another"

I think it would be normal to be sorry or guilty about that!

If you change "many" to "six million" and "one reason or another" for "gas chambers" that is where you get into fights.

Let's put it this way. Did the Nazis persecute and cause a number of Jewish deaths? I think we all agree. What we disagree are the dimensions and the methods and the idea that it was "all" done on purpose and according to plan.

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Postby trtsk » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:44 am)

I'm really pissed right now because I had written a rather long response to Hannover's last post and my computer crashed and it's lost.

I'm up again way past bedtime and I have people arriving at noon tomorrow and staying for a full 24 hour day. They'll leave before the sabbath begins.

Consequently I won't be able to respond to any posts until Satuday night at the earliest. Probably not until Sunday if my wife has any say.

I apologize to anyone waiting for responses from me. I did read Anne's note on the Ukrainians and I think her position is very reasonable. Kudos to you.

Tom

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:02 am)

Eichmann claims being ordered to go to Lemberg:
"There had been a pit there, it was already filled in, and blood was gushing out of it...how shall I say?...like a geyser. I've never seen anything like it. I'd had enough of that mission".


Gee, where did he get that from ?

Elie Wiesel claimed that at Babi Yar, a place in the Ukraine where the Germans allegedly executed 34,000 Jews:
Later, I learn from a witness that, for month after month, the ground never stopped trembling; and that, from time to time, geysers of blood spurted from it.

Paroles d'étranger (Editions du Seuil, 1982), p. 86


Copycat-itis for sure. And there is no mass grave at either site. So much for witnessing a 'mass shooting' of innocents.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby neugierig » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:31 am)

trtsk wrote:
“...Eichmann pled not guilty in Jerusalem. In fact he pled in exactly the same manner as Goring at Nuremberg: Not guilty in the sense of the indictment.....”


Before we can discuss what Eichmann pled ’not guilty’ to, we need to know: What was the wording of the charge?

Regardless, the fact that he was tried in Israel was wrong, if not illegal. The perpetrator cannot be judged by the aggrieved. How could this have been a fair trial, how could impartiality have been guaranteed. The Judges, Jurors and even the defence lawyer were all members of the injured party. The trial should have been held in a neutral country, administered by impartial parties, if it is to be considered a fair trial.

As to what he ’confessed’ to, under the above circumstances, who cares. Höß confessed to killing 3 million in Auschwitz, while he was in charge, leaving open the possibility of another 1 million to arrive at the desired 4 million, which, as we now know, was a lie. Gerstein treated us to some six confessions, all of them different.

In my opinion, Hannover, whom I had some disagreements with, makes sense. There are serious questions in regards to the technical capabilities of the killing apparatuses in general and the gas-chambers in particular, as are to the numbers killed. Therefore, we should know how many were killed and how, before anyone can ’confess’ to anything.

Anyway, just my one cent worth, shalom.

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Postby trtsk » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:10 am)

Hannover wrote:Eichmann claims being ordered to go to Lemberg:
"There had been a pit there, it was already filled in, and blood was gushing out of it...how shall I say?...like a geyser. I've never seen anything like it. I'd had enough of that mission".


Gee, where did he get that from ?

Elie Wiesel claimed that at Babi Yar, a place in the Ukraine where the Germans allegedly executed 34,000 Jews:
Later, I learn from a witness that, for month after month, the ground never stopped trembling; and that, from time to time, geysers of blood spurted from it.

Paroles d'étranger (Editions du Seuil, 1982), p. 86


Copycat-itis for sure. And there is no mass grave at either site. So much for witnessing a 'mass shooting' of innocents.

- Hannover


Eichmann above is not talking about the mass shooting he witnessed which was I think near Minsk.

Direct question to Hannover. Who copied whom on this topic?

Tom

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Postby Guptalicious » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:44 am)

FYI, Eichmann copied Wiesel, whose book was written around 1950. Wiesel apparently got the idea from some testimony during the Einsatzgruppen trial in 1947.

Eichmann's idea of submarine motors running gas chambers is probably a misrecall of the Gerstein claim that the hair of the victims was used to make slippers for submariners. Gerstein's affidavit became very widely known rught after the war and also from about 1953.

Eichmann also freely admitted in the '50's and in the '60's that he didn't remember much, and that he used books like Reitlinger (first came out in 1953) to jog his memory.

Eichmann is a seriously contaminated witness.

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Postby trtsk » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:01 pm)

Guptalicious wrote:FYI, Eichmann copied Wiesel, whose book was written around 1950. Wiesel apparently got the idea from some testimony during the Einsatzgruppen trial in 1947.


That would be something considering that the geysers quote doesn't come from Night as far as I remember. I could be wrong but I'm fairly sure it comes from another of his later books. Eichmann died in early 1962. Only Night had been published by this time in German.

Eichmann's idea of submarine motors running gas chambers is probably a misrecall of the Gerstein claim that the hair of the victims was used to make slippers for submariners. Gerstein's affidavit became very widely known rught after the war and also from about 1953.

Eichmann also freely admitted in the '50's and in the '60's that he didn't remember much, and that he used books like Reitlinger (first came out in 1953) to jog his memory.


Can you back up your claims about Gerstein's affadavit finding circulation to Argentina in the 1950s and/or Eichmann admitting to reading Reitlinger?

Eichmann is a seriously contaminated witness.


Everyone is entitled to his opinion.

Tom


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