Mass Graves / Serniki

Read and post various viewpoints or search our large archives.

Moderator: Moderator

Forum rules
Be sure to read the Rules/guidelines before you post!
SevenUp
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:54 pm

Re: Mass Graves / Serniki

Postby SevenUp » 7 years 10 months ago (Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:40 pm)

Hannover wrote:A Chapter! Available from Amazon. There you have it then.


It's worst than that, the book is a methodology book and Serniki is not the subject of Wright's chapter, but rather the subject is the methodology of archeological examinations of mass graves.

Mass Grave Survivor
Member
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:00 pm

Re: Mass Graves / Serniki

Postby Mass Grave Survivor » 7 years 10 months ago (Sat Dec 24, 2011 10:13 pm)

This frankly strikes me as not a bit ridiculous. I'll try to respond to all the points made this evening; please forgive me if I neglect any.

First, this i not supposed to be "proof of a Holocaust mass grave." As I've repeatedly said, all I'm trying to prove thus far is that a mass grave was located in Serniki in Ukraine. If/when we get agreement on that point, I'll make the case for the perpetrators and victims. I don't intend to waste my time if we're going to quibble about whether the grave really exists.

Second, there are more pictures; they're just not available online for free. I suspect that some of you have library cards and can therefore do the necessary research that any responsible person conducting research on historical events can do. That I provided you with a lecture transcript and links to two books seems, to me, to be sufficient that there is scholarship in circulation that this grave exists. I don't intend to violate copyrights to make this particular part of the case any further.

Third, many of Hannover's points/questions will be handled once we acknowledge that the grave does, in fact, exist. I will state again, however, that what was provided first was a transcript of a lecture given at a scholarly meeting. This is precisely the vast majority of what appears in the Journal of Historical Review, so I would recommend that, unless you want to appear to be applying double standards, you accept the lecture as having been given by Wright, who conducted the dig in question. Remember, by the way, that Wright was deposed in a court of law in Australia, where he was sworn to tell the truth.

Fourth, I fail to see how a person studying genocide as a scholarly activity posting to a scholarly discussion list the transcript of a lecture is a conflict of interest, but I'd be interested to hear how.

Fifth, much of what I intend to present has been subjected to peer review -- unlike the aforementioned JHR.

Sixth, this is not the only excavated grave. This is just the one I chose to start with.

Seventh, to repeat an earlier point, I don't intend on either being your librarian or on violating copyright. If I own these books, it's because I took the time and effort to do the necessary research. In a scholarly discussion, quid pro quo on such matters is expected. I gave you the necessary information to find these books; a library card, as mentioned, is all you need to pursue matters further. Or you can just concede that this mass grave exists and we can get on to the next matter -- that of perpetrators and victims.

Eighth, I can assure you the book with the chapter by Wright goes into more about Serniki than is available online. As an example of how to excavate a grave, he gives a detailed description of how it was done at Serniki and how the bodies were identified.

The Warden
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 436
Joined: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:28 pm
Location: 'Murica!

Re: Mass Graves / Serniki

Postby The Warden » 7 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:44 am)

This is really the only thing I'm interested in from that post:

Mass Grave Survivor wrote:As an example of how to excavate a grave, he gives a detailed description of how it was done at Serniki and how the bodies were identified.


Identified as what?
Why the Holocaust Industry exists:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2A81P6YGw_c

User avatar
Hannover
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 9892
Joined: Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:53 pm

Re: Mass Graves / Serniki

Postby Hannover » 7 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:06 am)

MSG:
If this is not supposed to be a 'holocaust' mass grave then what is the point of your bringing the claimed mass grave into a 'holocaust' discussion forum?

As I said before there is no way to verify that:
1. this a real mass grave, certainly looks strange
2. that it is even at Serniki or anywhere else
etc, etc.
So far I'm not buying any of your story.

We've only seen two suspicious photos, an email which confirms nothing, talk of a chapter in book which you cannot produce, instead of scientific forensic report, and alleged court transcripts which you cannot produce. Not a whole lot going on here.

If you have more photos, copyright laws states that for fair use you can post them for educational discussion, that's the law.
You claim trial transcripts but cannot produce them, so what can I say. You either have them for us to review or you do not. And if ypu do not then what's the point of bringing them up. And if you cannot find them from the alleged source then one has to further question their veracity. IOW, what are they hiding? And logically it is fair to ask if what your saying about a 'transcript' is true at all? So far it's all empty talk.

If the site is mentioned in two books, then so what? Empty claims, rumors, or wishful thinking are often transmitted and repeated. That certainly cannot be construed as verification. It is not convincing proof. Try that method in a real court of law, i.e.: 'Your honor, the court must believe me because what I feel is true is mentioned in two books'. Good luck with that one. Aliens that supposedly look like amphibians are mentioned in countless books, doesn't mean they are real.

There are no double standards. The Journal of Historical Review citations are readily reviewable & verifiable, your claims are obviously not.

Peer review? Show us this peer review. That would be pretty amazing since you cannot even produce anything which even resembles an archeological evaluation and analysis the would be reviewed by so called 'peers', and you cannot even answer the points / questions I have raised.

On your fourth point, I saw no 'transcript' to review in this guy's cheesy little email.

What it really looks like to me is that your dodging. You come out with all guns blazing and are now being challenged and cannot deliver. And as a result we see nothing but excuses.

and:
As an example of how to excavate a grave, he gives a detailed description of how it was done at Serniki and how the bodies were identified.

This I gotta see. Is he just talking about it / claiming it, or does he show it being done. Does he produce the methodology, data, in situ photos, etc.? IOW, a legit, verifiable scientific forensic report. We're waiting.

I suggest you read our basic & fair guidelines, dodging is distinctly discouraged.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

Clem
Member
Member
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:23 am

Re: Mass Graves / Serniki

Postby Clem » 7 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:08 am)

Our first job, having delimited the boundaries of the grave as some 40 metres long and 5 metres wide, was to bulldoze down two metres to within 20 centimetres of the bodies.


Driving a bulldozer over the area with less than 8 inches of sand between the bulldozer and the remains?

Sounds like total BS to me.

This whole thing stinks. I see no proof that this grave is what MGS says it is.

I don't intend to waste my time if we're going to quibble about whether the grave really exists.


So why are you wasting ours?

I don't intend to violate copyrights to make this particular part of the case any further.


Total BS. You're an anonymous poster. What do you care about violating copyrights?

what was provided first was a transcript of a lecture given at a scholarly meeting.


A "lecture" that took less than 5 minutes to give?

so I would recommend that, unless you want to appear to be applying double standards, you accept the lecture as having been given by Wright, who conducted the dig in question.


Dig "in question" is right. I've never seen such BS in my life.

Remember, by the way, that Wright was deposed in a court of law in Australia, where he was sworn to tell the truth.


Let's see the transcripts of the trial.

this is not the only excavated grave.


But of course you we are supposed to trust you to show the other photos? Are you sure it wont be a copyright violation?

Clem
Member
Member
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:23 am

Re: Mass Graves / Serniki

Postby Clem » 7 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:29 am)

I found the "transcript" listed at a site called The Nizkor Project

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/uk ... xcavations

The following article was sent to me by Dr. Richard Wright who
conducted forensic examination of two mass graves in Serniki and
Ustinovka, Ukraine. It is a more complete version of the article which
has appeared here before, courtesy of Darren O'Brien, and it contains
some additional notes on the use of forensic anthropology in Bosnia,
Rwanda, and Argentina in uncovering evidence of mass murder.

Since it addresses itself specifically to the claims of the so-called
revisionists, it is worth posting in its entirety.

User avatar
Hektor
Valuable asset
Valuable asset
Posts: 3356
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2006 7:59 am

Re: Mass Graves

Postby Hektor » 7 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 25, 2011 4:25 am)

Mkk wrote:...Anyway, Wright's claims are exactly that: claims. Is that the only photo? I'd like to see some photos of the bullets used, which were allegedly German. I'd like to see some other photos of the other alleged graves. I'd like to see photos of the entrance holes for the bullets.

What ammunition had been used in Katyn?

SevenUp
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:54 pm

Re: Mass Graves / Serniki

Postby SevenUp » 7 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 25, 2011 7:18 am)

From Wright's chapter in Forensic Pathology (using Google search inside the book for 'serniki') we see that while he claims the mass grave at Serniki was excavated, in fact the bodies were not exhumed and identified, paraphrasing (no cut/paste possible) ....

" the bodies were lined up like sardines and shot in the back of the head (this does not correspond to the photo we've seen, 7up). The bodies were rarely more than two deep. The pathologist worked inside the grave after the bodies were uncovered and only a few problematical bodies were exhumed. This lack of disturbance accorded with the wishes of the villagers (the standard mantra for holohoax graves, 7up)"

This is a must read , Wright goes on to justify his non-investigation at length, I'll give a link but I don't know if it will work....

http://www.amazon.com/Forensic-Archaeology-Advances-Theory-Practice/dp/0415273129/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1324814806&sr=1-4#reader_0415273129

this will get you to the Search inside the book function, then search on serniki and the page # is 156

Regarding the alleged mass grave at Utinovska, Wright writes in the summary linked in the OP ....

"It was alleged that after a hundred
or so adults had been marched two kilometres to a grave and shot, a fellow
had asked where the children were. "We didn't think you wanted to shoot
the children", the organisers of the round-up had said.
At that, some fellows returned to the village, commandeered a cart, and
drove the children back to the grave."

A fellow? The organizers of the round up? Some fellows? This strikes me as incredibly imprecise. Who does Wright identify as responsible for the alleged killings?

Wright continues ...

"They then, so the allegations went,
threw the children off the cart and into the grave, and shot them. I was
told that the SIU investigators
had interviewed the mother of three of
those children (the father was a Jew, she wasn't)."

Who told him? What SIU investigators. Again, incredibly imprecise.

Clem
Member
Member
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:23 am

Re: Mass Graves / Serniki

Postby Clem » 7 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:59 am)

I found a short clip (6:04) of a 28 minute video about this called

Unearthing Evil: Archaeology in the Cause of Justice

http://ffh.films.com/id/4600/Unearthing ... ustice.htm

Just click on the "preview clip" icon.

They show one skull with a bullet hole.

I can't keep from thinking the same question as I look into this particular issue.

Why didn't they do the same thing at Sobibor for the Demjanjuk trial?

They even had the whole Sobibor camp mapped with GPR.

I'd like to ask MGS this question directly

MGS

Why do you think they didn't they do the same thing at Sobibor for the Demjanjuk trial

(ie send an archaeology team to Sobibor to do a real excavation.)

instead of contriving the charade with Kola and the Hartford Fraud Squad?

Mass Grave Survivor
Member
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:00 pm

Re: Mass Graves / Serniki

Postby Mass Grave Survivor » 7 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:14 pm)

The forensic report is in the book chapter by Wright.

I'm not your librarian nor do I intend to violate copyrights. It's your turn to get to work.

SevenUp
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:54 pm

Re: Mass Graves / Serniki

Postby SevenUp » 7 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:25 pm)

Mass Grave Survivor wrote:The forensic report is in the book chapter by Wright.

I'm not your librarian nor do I intend to violate copyrights. It's your turn to get to work.


This is silly. I'm sure there is no library in the city where I live that has the book. And, even if there were, this is an internet discussion, so you should post accordingly.

Clem
Member
Member
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 12:23 am

Re: Mass Graves / Serniki

Postby Clem » 7 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 25, 2011 12:46 pm)

MGS

there are more pictures; they're just not available online for free.


MGS, do you have the link to these phantom pictures?


MGS

I'm not your librarian nor do I intend to violate copyrights. It's your turn to get to work.


My work is done. I've seen no proof that this is a "Holocaust" mass grave. If it was, the Holocausts industry would be all over it. This looks like a Kola / Hartford type fraud to me. Using bits and pieces of information to try and create an illusion rather than just lay it all out for all the world to see.

Just imagine, you now have to PAY the Jews to see the claimed proof of the Holcaust. ($150.00 for a 28 min vid!)

Why am I not suprised?

Mass Grave Survivor
Member
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:00 pm

Re: Mass Graves / Serniki

Postby Mass Grave Survivor » 7 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:38 pm)

My question, for now, was whether the mass grave exists at all. Hannover says no. What of the rest of you?

By the way, here's a link to find the book. Enter your ZIP code if in the U.S.

http://www.worldcat.org/title/forensic- ... -practice/

That's all the help you'll get from me. Sorry.

SevenUp
Valued contributor
Valued contributor
Posts: 255
Joined: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:54 pm

Re: Mass Graves / Serniki

Postby SevenUp » 7 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 25, 2011 1:43 pm)

Mass Grave Survivor wrote:My question, for now, was whether the mass grave exists at all. Hannover says no. What of the rest of you?

By the way, here's a link to find the book. Enter your ZIP code if in the U.S.

http://www.worldcat.org/title/forensic- ... -practice/

That's all the help you'll get from me. Sorry.


By the way, here's a link to find the book.

Nope. If there is anything there, I trust McVay will put in on the internet.

I'm believe there is a grave there. And, I'm ready to go on to the next phase of your 'presentation'.

Mass Grave Survivor
Member
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:00 pm

Re: Mass Graves / Serniki

Postby Mass Grave Survivor » 7 years 10 months ago (Sun Dec 25, 2011 2:03 pm)

One vote for the grave existing (7up) and one vote against (Hannover).

By the way, you can get an interlibrary loan if you need the book that badly. As an FYI, it took me five minutes to find the book online for free. I also spent a grand total of $5 US to get Bevan's book shipped to me. So there's that.


Return to “'Holocaust' Debate / Controversies / Comments / News”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: MSN [Bot] and 6 guests