fake Einsatzgruppen document

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Hannover
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fake Einsatzgruppen document

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Dec 15, 2002 5:53 am)

This piece of paper is pushed off as 'evidence', but upon inspection we see that it is nothing more that a piece of paper. It's a crude fake attempting to claim that 363,211 Russian Jews had been executed.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/Himmler/Meldung291242.html
and
http://vho.org/VffG/1999/2/Image24.jpg

This alleged "document" is particularily clumsy, and quite absurd.

take note:

- no official stationary
- no signatures
- initials that could be easily added
- no indication of typist...standard procedure
- no forensic/physical confirmation via mass graves for numbers given
- could have been typed by anyone
- completely unverifiable

Hannover

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Postby max » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Dec 15, 2002 9:42 am)

There is no reason why to dismiss this report as forgery. Hannover simply assumes without reason that a report given to Hitler by his Personal adjudant should be prepared like correspondence between two offices. And he "overlooks" that this is aparently the second page of the document and naturally he has no idea what "official stationaries" and "signatures" are on the accompanying letter.

- no forensic/physical confirmation via mass graves for numbers given


And so? Do you know where the murdered Jews were buried and have you checked that they aren't there? If we don't know where the murdered Jews were buried, however, then of course we cannot check the numbers and the lack-of-phyiscal-evidence argument has no relevance.

Now, this report was written with a special typewriter with large type as it was usually used for the convience of the Führer. This suggests that the report was in fact written for Hitler and that it is authentic.

Furthermore, in December 1941, Hitler ordered or authorised Himmler to exterminate the Jews as partisans. About one year later, Hitler received this report from Himmler where 363.211 executed Jews are listed next to the figure for the executed partisans. This makes sense and is perfectly plausible.

In conclusion, I must agree with the revisionist David Irving that "it is probably authentic".

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Dec 15, 2002 12:46 pm)

Max wrote: Furthermore, in December 1941, Hitler ordered or authorised Himmler to exterminate the Jews as partisans.

Reference is made here to this handwritten note by Himmler, which he allegedly scribbled during a meeting with Hitler:
Image

The URL given by the poster is the Mazal site, which titles this note as: “Memorandum written by Heinrich Himmler on December 18, 1941”.
The contents has been retraced by Mazal I assume to make it more readable.

In my opinion a scribbled note during a meeting can hardly be called a memorandum. The phrase in question hardly a full sentence, “Jews question. as partisans to exterminate.”
Exterminationists translate this to mean: “All Jews shall be exterminated, like partisans.” (Partisans were shot when caught)
My personal translation is: “Jews, if they are caught as parisans, shall be exterminated.”

Max wrote: And he "overlooks" that this is aparently the second page of the document and naturally he has no idea what "official stationaries" and "signatures" are on the accompanying letter.

This is a strange “second page”. It appears that the page number “-2-“ was added later. And was it the rule with the SS to repeate the date and full subject on the following pages in a memo?
What happened to the first page? Was it ever found?
The item c) about Jews executed does not make sense here n a memo about partisan war.

fge

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Dec 15, 2002 2:26 pm)

Well said, Sailor.

I like Max's "aparently a second page" bit, how creative, but completely unsubstantiated...he claims it's an 'official' SS tally, but no official markings, again:
- no official stationary
- no signatures
- initials that could be easily added
- no indication of typist...standard procedure
- no forensic/physical confirmation via mass graves for numbers given
- could have been typed by anyone
- completely unverifiable

Here we have an alleged 'document' that was allegedly given to Hitler, that's Hitler for godssake, but yet it lacks any indentifying traits, is casually typed on an old German typewriter of which thousands existed, and many still do. This thing was probably typed in New York, not on the Eastern Front. There is absolutely nothing to validate this obvious forgery, it's laughable.

And then Max tries to pass off a note which in fact buttresses the Revisionist point that partisans, who were largely Jews (today 'partisans' are called terrorists) were shot, which was acceptable under international of law for 'non-uniformed combatants'.

And yes, Einsatzgruppen shootings were said to be in centralized places (as per "eyewitnesses"). So, as TMoran would say...2 guys with shovels could settle the matter nicely, but yet we have no such physical evidence. Evidence, which if shown to be there would certainly aid the holocau$t hucksters. They don't dare try, they know there's nothing at those alleged sites...Babi Yar a prime example.
The piece of paper is a fraud.

- Hannover

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Dec 15, 2002 8:22 pm)

Unfortunately I missed Max's reply, the one that got tossed. Well, maybe some other time.
Moderator: I am not very sensitive and don't mind to get roughed a little.

fge

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Dec 15, 2002 8:41 pm)

Sailor:

The point of deleting the post was that it contained nothing relevant to the specific points under discussion, it was a digression/distraction with personal implications; you missed nothing of substance.

And yes, having a tough skin is pretty much required for Revisionists.

The Forum appreciates your well informed efforts.

Thanks, Moderator

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Postby 1/2 Believer » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:08 pm)

I agree, Eintzgruppen murders are probably the most well documented aspect of the holocaust. Undoubtably very large numbers of Jews were killed by these units and dozens of locations.

Evidence includes...

Written records from many sources, Film footage and pictures made by Germans
Eye witness testimony of a WIDE variety of people with many motivations including.....

Perpetrators, both German and local auxilaries
Local civilians both sympathetic and non sympathetic to Jews
German civilians, Wermacht troops, Chaplains etc.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:27 am)

This thread is about a particular bogus 'document', please actually read my initial post. Please respond to the specifics of the posts. Generalizations will not work here.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby 1/2 Believer » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:40 am)

1/2 Believer wrote:I agree, Eintzgruppen murders are probably the most well documented aspect of the holocaust. Undoubtably very large numbers of Jews were killed by these units and dozens of locations.

Evidence includes...

Written records from MANY sources, Film footage and pictures made by Germans
Eye witness testimony of a WIDE variety of people with many motivations including.....

Perpetrators, both German and local auxilaries
Local civilians both sympathetic and non sympathetic to Jews
German civilians, Wermacht troops, Chaplains etc.


Hannover,

I did read your initial post. I agree with MAX and DR. Irving (revisionist) belief that the document is authentic. The authenticity is supported by these general but accurate statements supporting the contention that large scale Killings of Jewsih civilians occured in the occupied Soviet Union.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 12:54 am)

You have produced no specific evidence for supporting THIS document, Produce it, please.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:46 am)

1/2 Believer wrote:I agree, Eintzgruppen murders are probably the most well documented aspect of the holocaust. Undoubtably very large numbers of Jews were killed by these units and dozens of locations.

Evidence includes...

Written records from many sources, Film footage and pictures made by Germans
Eye witness testimony of a WIDE variety of people with many motivations including.....

Perpetrators, both German and local auxilaries
Local civilians both sympathetic and non sympathetic to Jews
German civilians, Wermacht troops, Chaplains etc.

Some people refer to soldiers as murderers. Militaries usually resent this. It was a big issue in Germany.

I assume that the documentation here refers to the so-called Einsatzgruppen Reports.
These were written by a Dr. Knobloch in Berlin, allegedly based on information which he received from the Einsatzgruppen at the Russian front.

There are some questions about the accuracy of these reports, exaggerations.

Doubts were raised by the “Popes” and expert witnesses of the Einsatzgruppen, Helmut Krausnick and Hans-Heinrich Wilhelm, authors of “Die Truppe des Weltanschauungs-Krieges” (The Troop of the Ideology-War), a classic about Einsatzgruppen. Wilhelm recommended that historians should not rely on these reports solely, but should check out other sources as well.
Even Reitlinger had doubts about the numbers in those reports.

The defense lawyer of the German general von Manstein investigated some of the alleged events of the Einsatzgruppen Reports and discovered gross exaggerations.

Here are some details about the partisan war in Russia:

Based on Soviet as well as on German Third Reich sources there were about 500,000 Soviet partisans fighting in civilian clothes behind the front line. Recent investigations indicate quite clearly, that the destruction of material by the partisans – especially the destructions of the supply lines in the years 1943/44 – can by all means considered as a main factor which contributed to the defeat of the Wehrmacht in the east. The number of German soldiers and civilians killed by the partisans is estimated by Soviet sources up to 1.5 million.

»Within three war years the White-Russian partisans eliminated about 500,000 German soldiers, 47 Generals, they blew up 17,000 military transports of the enemy and 32 armored trains, destroyed 300,000 railroad tracks, 16,804 motor vehicles and another huge amount of war material of all kind.«

The Germans could not and did not take this lying down.

Were women and children as part to fight the terror actions killed during reprisal actions?. Probably.
US nuked 400,000 Japanese women and children alive and 900,000 German womaen and children during carpet bombing raids in German cities, in order to bring the war to an end through the use of terror.
This is now called “collateral damage”.

:D
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Postby Alain » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:15 pm)

Hannover wrote:And then Max tries to pass off a note which in fact buttresses the Revisionist point that partisans, who were largely Jews (today 'partisans' are called terrorists) were shot, which was acceptable under international of law for 'non-uniformed combatants'.


I'm sorry but this is simply not true.

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Postby Alain » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 1:18 pm)

1/2 Believer wrote:I agree, Eintzgruppen murders are probably the most well documented aspect of the holocaust. Undoubtably very large numbers of Jews were killed by these units and dozens of locations.


Then where are the bodies? And what about these documents that are alleged to exist? As pointed out, none are on official stationery, are stamped 'Top Secret' or anything of the sort.

TMoran's assertion that Katyn shows the sheer lack of evidence of widespread anti-partisan action is a real nail in the coffin, IMO.

Alain

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:29 pm)

Alain says:

"Hannover wrote:

And then Max tries to pass off a note which in fact buttresses the Revisionist point that partisans, who were largely Jews (today 'partisans' are called terrorists) were shot, which was acceptable under international of law for 'non-uniformed combatants'.

I'm sorry but this is simply not true"


So show me that it is not true.

- H.
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Banshee » 1 decade 5 years ago (Fri Jul 25, 2003 5:31 pm)

Sailor wrote:
Max wrote: Furthermore, in December 1941, Hitler ordered or authorised Himmler to exterminate the Jews as partisans.

Reference is made here to this handwritten note by Himmler, which he allegedly scribbled during a meeting with Hitler:
Image

The URL given by the poster is the Mazal site, which titles this note as: “Memorandum written by Heinrich Himmler on December 18, 1941”.
The contents has been retraced by Mazal I assume to make it more readable.

In my opinion a scribbled note during a meeting can hardly be called a memorandum. The phrase in question hardly a full sentence, “Jews question. as partisans to exterminate.”
Exterminationists translate this to mean: “All Jews shall be exterminated, like partisans.” (Partisans were shot when caught)
My personal translation is: “Jews, if they are caught as parisans, shall be exterminated.”

Max wrote: And he "overlooks" that this is aparently the second page of the document and naturally he has no idea what "official stationaries" and "signatures" are on the accompanying letter.

This is a strange “second page”. It appears that the page number “-2-“ was added later. And was it the rule with the SS to repeate the date and full subject on the following pages in a memo?
What happened to the first page? Was it ever found?
The item c) about Jews executed does not make sense here n a memo about partisan war.

fge




My alternate hypothesis to this "fragment"
1) Is possible that Himmler have suggested merely a personal point of view to Hitler, but we don't known if Hitler have agree or have dismissed the proposal of Himmler. So this fragment prove nothing.
2) My personal traduction: "Exterminate if partisans". This is also proved by the policy on Eastern Front.
All in all, this strange phrase, ex se, don't prove nothing.


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