67 years ago: A real Holocaust

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67 years ago: A real Holocaust

Postby Mkk » 8 years 3 days ago (Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:56 am)

Dresden was on this day 67 years ago. :(

Irving's book:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Dresden/index.html
Document says 100,000 missing:
Image

In the night of February 13-14, 1945, the ancient and beautiful capital of Saxony, Dresden, was attacked three times, twice by the RAF and once by the USAAF, the United States Army Air Force, in an operation involving well over 1,000 bombers. The consequences were catastrophic, as the historical city centre was incinerated and between 25,000 and 40,000 people lost their lives.[1] Dresden was not an important industrial or military centre and therefore not a target worthy of the considerable and unusual common American and British effort involved in the raid. The city was not attacked as retribution for earlier German bombing raids on cities such as Rotterdam and Coventry, either. In revenge for the destruction of these cities, bombed ruthlessly by the Luftwaffe in 1940, Berlin, Hamburg, Cologne and countless other German towns big and small had already paid dearly in 1942, 1943, and 1944. Furthermore, by the beginning of 1945, the Allied commanders knew perfectly well that even the most ferocious bombing raid would not succeed in “terrorizing [the Germans] into submission,”[2] so that it is not realistic to ascribe this motive to the planners of the operation. The bombing of Dresden, then, seems to have been a senseless slaughter, and looms as an even more terrible undertaking than the atomic obliteration of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, which is at least supposed to have led to the capitulation of Japan.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... &aid=17515

Despite this they will build statues of the perpetrators.
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Churchill, the supposed greatest man of the last century, endorsed the Morgenthua plan which was to kill 20 million Germans and also ordered the bombing of Germany with 2 million anthrax bombs. Thankfully, this was never carried out, but an idea of the scale of destruction such a thing could bring is afforded here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2857207.stm (and that is JUST ONE bomb in modern times)

Der Spiegel also had a lying professor or someone who claimed Dresden was not just a town for refugees but a part of the war effort.

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"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re: 67 years ago: A real Holocaust

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 8 years 3 days ago (Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:01 pm)

Image

If I were a prisoner in Auschwitz, and had a choice between death by poison gas
and being burned alive by incendiary bombs, I know which I would choose.

- Arthur Harris, March 23, 1962
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Irving/photos/1960 ... 30362.html
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
- Prof. Noah Charney

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Re: 67 years ago: A real Holocaust

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 8 years 3 days ago (Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:06 pm)

11 months later, corpses still being recovered in Dresden

American correspondents allow to visit Dresden,in the Soviet Zone of Occupied Germany for the first time in January 1946.

200,000 - 250,000 estimated killed in the bombing.

Dresden had been full of refugees fleeing from the East.

Major General Dimitry Duorovski estimates 10,000s of corpses still remain buried.

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Lubbock Morning Avalanche - January 4, 1946
http://newspaperarchive.com/morning-ava ... 04/page-18

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Ottawa Citizen, January 3, 1946
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=yvwuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=E9wFAAAAIBAJ&dq=800000%20jews%20poland&pg=3656%2C226211
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
- Prof. Noah Charney

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Re: 67 years ago: A real Holocaust

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 8 years 3 days ago (Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:22 pm)

Bomb damage in Britain compared to bomb damage on Germany (Arthur Harris' figures)

(Incidentally, my gran was pregnant with my mother, and was evacuated from London's East End with her 5 children,
her husband was off fighting for the interests of Zionism & international bankers, if they aren't the same thing.)

Image
Original: http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/7f51b3f2844fb6b8561a394ccea3576d.jpg

Marshall of the Royal Air Force Sir Arthur Harris, compared, in his 1947 memoirs Bomber Offensive,
damage inflicted in both Britain and Germany by aerial bombardment during World War II.

He also noted how the Americans often minimised the damage inflicted on German cities:

There is often a marked discrepancy between the observations of the United States Strategic Bombing Survey and the assessment made by members of the Operational Research Section of Bomber Command when they examined our targets on the spot, and this descrepancy even extends to the simple question of what percentage of houses in a town were destroyed; possibly the word "destruction" was defined in two different ways, or possibly outlying districts were considered parts of the town in one survey and not the other. Thus the United States survey says that we destroyed 31 per cent of the houses in Hamburg and 22 per cent of the houses in Dusseldorf, but our Operational Research Section worked it out as 61 per cent in Hamburg and 50 per cent in Dusseldorf.

The representatives of our Operational Research Section in Germany were able to revise the measurement of the extent of devastation in germany cities which we had obtained during the war from air photographs; these were taken under operational conditions and did not always give complete cover of the areas concerned. Seventy German cities were attacked by Bomber Command. Twenty-three of these had more than sixty per cent of their built up areas destroyed and 46 about half of their built-up areas destroyed. Thirty-one cities had more than five hundred acres, and many more of them vastly more than 500; thus Hamburg had 6200 acres, Berlin 6427-this includes about 1000 acres of destruction by American attacks- Dusseldorf, 2003, and Colonge 1944. Between one and two thousand acres were devastated in Dresden, Bremen, Duisburg, Essen, Frankfurt-am-Main, Hanover, Munich, Nuremberg, Mannheim-Ludwigshafen, and Stuttgart. As an indication of what this means it may be mentioned that London had about 600, Plymouth about 400, and Coventry just over 100 acres destroyed by enemy aircraft during the war.

Bomber Offensive p.261
Sir Arthur Harris
http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/c1d9fe162010713984b59af66fef8be5.jpg
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
- Prof. Noah Charney

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Re: 67 years ago: A real Holocaust

Postby Heimwehr » 8 years 3 days ago (Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:17 pm)

Every year there is a group of right wingers (as obviously nobody else in occupied Germany is interested in historical truth) who tries to organize a remembrance march in the city of Dresden at the date of her destruction. This group is being vilified by the German media like Satan himself has surfaced. Guild-ridden brainwashed sheep are used in countermarches and at the same time the number of deaths by that war crime is lowered every year.

I have read a number of 20,000 dead for the Dresden raid in a major German newspaper today. Eye witness accounts of survivors who claim that they have been shot at by low flying Spitfires after the bombing raid at gathering places on the Elbwiesen are called as not being trustworthy by the media, as there is no documentation evidence (!) for the crime in the log books of the pilots!

In a few years the media will state that there have been no German casualties at all and the air raid was just an imagination made up by some Nazi lunatics… .
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell

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Re: 67 years ago: A real Holocaust

Postby Mkk » 8 years 3 days ago (Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:26 am)

Are there any statitics on death/destruction in other mainland countries? The bombing war was also against countries like France. You would think they would focus on military objectives in that country atleast, but no, mostly non-military cities like Caen were destroyed, with the bombers missing the Germans!
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re: 67 years ago: A real Holocaust

Postby borjastick » 8 years 3 days ago (Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:56 am)

OK I think we need an alternative and perhaps better balanced comment on this non holocaust thread.

There is a clear difference between waging a legitimate war against Germany between 1939-1945 as did Britain led by Winston Churchill, and the holocaust as claimed by world jewry.

A recent German led investigation into the Dresden raids concluded that about one tenth - 20,000 - deaths occurred as a result of these raids.

Never forget that Britain was the only country to fight against Hitler from start to finish. Despite that, our friends in other parts would have you believe that they did it all single handedly...

Can we now get back to the real point of this website, the holocaust or lack of it.
'Of the four million Jews under Nazi control in WW2, six million died and alas only five million survived.'

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Re: 67 years ago: A real Holocaust

Postby Mkk » 8 years 3 days ago (Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:57 am)

Borjastick,

You do know there is such a thing as a war crime? War isn't a free for all, there are certain laws that are thought to be moral, and burning alive tens of thousands of innocents towards the very end of the war who were not contributing very much to the war anyway cannot be justified.

As for that German study, do you really trust them? Official historiography will do anything to make the allies look better. Anyway, I have already provided documentary evidence the death toll was over 100,000. Even then, that is 20,000 men,women,children,elderly, all innocent, all killed.
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re: 67 years ago: A real Holocaust

Postby Hans » 8 years 3 days ago (Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:53 am)

[Revisionist mode]

I challenge Mkk to prove that 100,000 (or whatever figure he thinks is true) people were killed by British or American bombs in Dresden. I also challenge him - with proof - to give a single name of a person who was killed by British or American bombs in Dresden.

I note that there is no proof that the alleged "document" posted by Mkk is authentic or reliable. In fact, it is not an original German document but merely an alleged transcript of an allegedly intercepted radio message. I challenge Mkk to show us the original document from the Police Dresden!

Indeed, with superior Revisionist methodology it can be easily shown that the alleged "document" is a fabrication. The word "Vermisstemeldung" used in the "document" does in fact not exist in German and would have never been used by a German (but VermissteNmeldung), therefore the document is a forgery (related to David Irving obviously).

Moreover, even if the "document" were not forged, it would merely indicate the death of 9720 people (and even for this figure there exists no hard physical evidence and therefore there is no reason to accept it according to Revisionists standards), thus much lower than what the Dre$den hoaxers maintain. 80 to 100,000 is actually the number of missing people according to the fabricated "document". It is interesting how the hoaxers turn temporarily missing people into death people with their atrocity propaganda.

The Dresden hoax is also entirely non-credible because of the extremely varying death tolls over time (similiar to the Auschwitz hoax, as Hannover has brilliantly exposed here):

Official Dresden figures!

Which figure must we believe?
Which figure is considered anti-German?
Which figure is not considered hate?
Which figure must be compensated by West-German taxpayers?

Code: Select all

Date       Official source of information                  Death
13.2.99     Researcher Ernst Zündel                         600.000
70s         F. J. P. Vale                                   500.000
1945        Joseph Goebbels                                 400.000
3.3.1995    Die Welt (German newspaper)                     400.000
31.7.1992   City of Dresden                                 300.000
12.2.1995   Die Welt (German newspaper)                     253.000
1955        Presse- und Informationsamt der Bundesregierung 250.000
1945        Höherer SS- und Polizeiführer Elbe              202.040
1963        Historian David Irving                          135.000
17.2.1945   Svenska Morgonbladet (Swedish newspaper)        100.000
1952        Hans Rumpf                                       60.000
29.5.1946   Hans Fritsche                                    40.000
1994        Dresden Historian Götz Bergander                 35.000
1994        Dresden Historian Friedrich Reichert             25.000




The picture proves nothing, it is just a pile of something being burned somewhere. I challenge Mkk to prove that

a) there are actually corpses in the photograph

b) the photograph was actually taken in Dresden right after the alleged bombing of the city by British or Americans

c) the photograph shows corpses who died because of an American or British bombing, and not say of typhus for instance.

[/Revisionist mode]

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Re: 67 years ago: A real Holocaust

Postby Haldan » 8 years 3 days ago (Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:25 am)

Hans:

Unlike your belief in mass extermination of Jews with zyklon, benzin or diesel (did I forget one?) there's nothing implausible with regards to the deaths in Dresden. The only thing which is not set in stone (such as it is at Auschwitz and all over Europe to commemorate false history) is the numbers of victims.
There is nothing in the Dresden story that defies laws of physics, there is nothing in it which is scientifically impossible and should one wish to doubt it, nay, disbelieve it, that's you're right as an individual - but your mandated belief of Jewish extermination fits in my category of a story that defy the laws of physics, is scientifically impossible as alleged and it is a belief mandated by tough law enforcement.

Best wishes,
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Re: 67 years ago: A real Holocaust

Postby Kingfisher » 8 years 2 days ago (Tue Feb 14, 2012 5:30 am)

I for one welcome Hans's somewhat tongue-in-cheek post. I would suggest, however, that there is just a teensy bit more actual material and documentary evidence in the case of the Dresden bombings, so that his post finishes up as a Revisionist argument

The vastly-varying statistics in the case of Dresden are an object lesson for Holocaust studies. The highest figures are clearly flights of fantasy, and most authorities today would suggest somewhere within a wide spread in the lower end of the range without attempting to narrow it down very closely, say 25-70K. The Wikipedia article goes for 25K, which is lower than even the lowest of Hans's figures. (The same article, BTW, accepts 50K for Hamburg.) But even in the 1990s we see figures in the 250-300K range in Hans's list.

So in Dresden we have, roughly, an uncontested body count of 20 K plus and an official total of 25 K derived from it. In the Holocaust we have a total of 6M that must be accepted on pain of imprisonment, based on a body count of how many proven gas victims?

Keep coming, though, Hans. Authentic Revisionism should be based on facts and scientific methodology, which includes standing up to critical examination.

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Re: 67 years ago: A real Holocaust

Postby SKcz » 8 years 2 days ago (Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:51 am)

Please Hans, adress my challenge number 14 here, feel free to start a new thread and quote my comment.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6801#p49398

Please adress my challenges 12 and 13 here.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6800

These challenges are waiting for you. I am sorry for off topic.

Hans´s comment here looks like a great example of mixing of apples and oranges to me.

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Re: 67 years ago: A real Holocaust

Postby Hektor » 8 years 2 days ago (Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:05 pm)

Mkk wrote:Dresden was on this day 67 years ago. :(
Irving's book:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Dresden/index.html
Document says 100,000 missing:
Image
....

Is this an excerpt from a telegram?

Here is what the official Dresden site publishes:
http://www.dresden.de/de/02/110/03/c_01 ... kommission
Unfortunately, I didn't find an English translation.
But there is still a short press release:
Dresden historical commission publishes final report
Up to 25,000 citizens lost their lives during Allied bombing raids in February 1945
The »Historical Commission on the Aerial Bombing of Dresden between 13th and 15th February 1945« brought its investigations on behalf of the City of Dresden to a close on 17th March 2010 with the publishing of a final report. Following the presentation to Mayor Helma Orosz, the report was on the same day made available to the general public both in book form and via the city's website.

The Commission was established in November 2004 by Ingolf Roßberg, the mayor of the city at that time, as an outcome of discussions among local citizens concerning the culture of remembrance in Dresden. At the end of a series of controversial debates, it was confirmed by the Dresden City Council in January 2007 and endowed with the necessary research budget. At the same time, the council resolution extended and detailed the tasks of the Commission.

Investigation of the number of persons killed in Dresden in February 1945
The task of the Commission was to be to »determine the current status of research regarding the number of persons killed as a result of the aerial bombing of Dresden in February 1945«. This aspect of the historical events has remained a topic of contentious discussion through to the present day: The span of the purported figures is particularly wide, ranging from approx. 20,000 to 500,000, and in individual cases even up to one million fatalities: Remembrance surrounding the Allied air raids on Dresden - addressed symbolically by way of the anniversary date 13th February - continues to possess topical importance in socio-political disputes over historical images, concepts of society and identities. Within the context of this discourse, the number of persons killed in the air raids on Dresden has long since become a central argument bundling subjective valuations and standpoints.

It was not a feasible objective of the investigations to determine each individual person killed in Dresden in February 1945 with any degree of certainty. It was rather the intention to establish the order of the total figure, in other words to determine the number of deaths within a significantly narrower range than that to be derived from the current debate. This was accomplished successfully by the Commission. Essential characteristics of the research work were both the extraordinarily broad interdisciplinary approach and intensive use of the possibilities offered by electronic information processing.

Following a critical assessment of the records in German and foreign archives, the involved experts decided to attempt a wholly new calculation of the number of deaths resulting from the aerial bombing of Dresden. Three different approaches were taken: Initially, it was planned to establish population balances for Dresden before and after the air raids of February 1945, but this proved impracticable due to the lack of coherent evidence. It was possible, on the other hand, to determine the number of people killed in Dresden in February 1945 both from the gathering of individual documentary records in respect of the recovery, registration and burial of those killed in the Dresden air raids and, independently thereof, by way of an analysis of official records kept by the city's register offices.

Over the course of intensive research in archives, the records of cemeteries both in and outside Dresden and the files of the register offices and local courts, almost 60,000 data records were acquired in an electronic database. In the majority of cases, several records referred to one and the same person. The data gathered related to both identified persons and unidentified remains. It was subsequently possible, on the basis of this data, to essentially reconstruct the processes of recovery, registration and burial after the bombing. The analysis of official records in the Dresden register offices first sought to determine the number of deaths recorded in connection with the air raids in February 1945. Parallel to this, all official declarations of death relating to persons killed in the Dresden air raids which had been recorded nationwide since 1945 were similarly analysed. As an outcome of these two analyses, the Commission was able to conclude that the air raids on Dresden between 13th and 15th February 1945 caused up to 25,000 deaths. This corroborates official figures issued by the responsible authorities in 1945 and 1946.

The plausibility of the newly determined figure was tested in several further phases of study. Neither the documentary records, nor the numerous contentions and narratives to be found in literature and the media revealed sustainable arguments which placed the result in doubt.

The Commission investigated in particular numerous personal witness accounts and showed that only a small minority of the eyewitnesses are willing and able to give information on the total number of air raid deaths in Dresden. Frequently cited reminiscences which report a significantly higher number of deaths on the basis of supposedly authorised sources were sampled for further analysis by the Commission and deemed to be speculative.

The Commission gave consideration to the number of refugees killed in Dresden from several perspectives; their number is frequently assumed to be very high. The analysis of individual records, however, revealed clearly that the proportion of refugees among those killed during the aerial bombing of Dresden was actually only small. This conclusion was also confirmed by a statistical evaluation of the records of nationally active tracing services.

The popular assumption that the remains of many of those killed in Dresden were not recovered was similarly shown to be untrue. On the basis of both a spatial analysis of the recovery work and an analysis of archaeological investigations in central areas of the city, it can be excluded that any significant number of deaths went unrecorded in this manner. There was equally no evidence found to support the widespread belief that recovery and burial were documented so incompletely that correct determination of the number of persons killed must be impossible. It is true that the responsible authorities were required to improvise in many cases, given the extent of the catastrophe and the pressures of time, but the Commission is nevertheless convinced that at least the numbers of persons killed were recorded in an essentially orderly manner. This applies both to the persons recovered up to the end of the war and to the work of the subsequent years. At the same time, the Commission investigated whether a significant number of persons could have been burned to ashes in the firestorms of the night of 13th/14th February to such an extent that registration would have been impossible. From the results of material science and archaeological investigations, it became clear that the necessary prerequisites were met at most at isolated points.

In a further approach to its studies, the Commission placed the number of persons killed in the aerial bombing of Dresden in the overall historical context of the Second World War - both in terms of the military course of the strategic war in the air and with reference to the total balance of civilian casualties. A six-figure number of deaths in Dresden alone is not reconcilable with either perspective. All the aforementioned investigation perspectives support the determined result conclusively.

Investigations pertaining to strafing attacks on Dresden between 13th and 15th February 1945
As an extension of the original task, the City Council asked the Commission to clarify whether low-flying aircraft were used in the Allied air raids of February 1945 and whether there had been any strafing of the local population with onboard weapons.

As a result of the studies of military and civilian documents from German and Allied sources, it can be excluded that the city of Dresden was a target of strafing attacks between 13th and 15th February 1945. A broad analysis of eyewitness reports produced a contradictory picture: While strafing attacks play no role in the majority of accounts, a few eyewitnesses report such attacks by single or a small number of planes. On the basis of such reports, the Commission carried out archaeological investigations in several parts of the city, but was unable to find any evidence for the use of aircraft cannons.

Investigation of the memories of citizens of Dresden
The collection and evaluation of subjective reminiscences represented an indispensable aspect of the investigations, particularly as a means by which to structure the subject matter of parallel research efforts and as a basis for critical analysis of their results. In accordance with an explicit demand of the Dresden City Council, the Commission gathered or recorded the subjective accounts of 1,314 persons from the generation which actually experienced the wartime period, including 90 biographical interviews. The analysis of these witness testimonies gave a clear illustration of their great value for explorations of »experienced history«. Specific examples permitted confirmation of the scientific knowledge regarding the correlations between memories and our reconstruction of the past.

Through its evaluations of controversial memories and interpretations, the Commission showed that popular assignments of particular narrative images to the whole group of contemporary witnesses (for example the adherence to an extremely high number of deaths in the aerial bombing of Dresden) are to be viewed as impermissible generalisations. At the same time, the studies demonstrated the influences of collective opinion, public debate, etc. on personal memories.

Through its intensive treatment of the memories of eyewitnesses, the Commission was once more able to reconstruct the human dimension of the Dresden catastrophe of February 1945 in particularly vivid form. The personally specific records in the electronic database, too, permit a view beyond bare figures and bring to light the individual suffering of those affected. The Commission understands its work as a contribution to a scientific portrayal of historical events and to responsible remembrance of the fate of those who lost their lives in Dresden.
http://www.dresden.de/en/02/07/03/histo ... ission.php


My question to Hans: Why was there no official historical commission to investigate the number of dead by gassing in Auschwitz?
And to what conclusions would such a commission have come, if they had used the same methods as the Dresden commission or even more objective/favorable/less strict methods then that commission?

I hope you realise that you may have shot into your own goal with your cynical parody above.

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Re: 67 years ago: A real Holocaust

Postby Hannover » 8 years 2 days ago (Tue Feb 14, 2012 3:22 pm)

On the 'Allies victory':
The eminent British war historian and strategist Captain Sir Basil Liddell Hart declared that by this strategy victory had been achieved "through practising the most uncivilised means of warfare that the world had known since the Mongol invasions"
(The Evolution of Warfare. 1946, p. 75).


I suggest that Hans consult the cemeteries of Dresden, where real mass graves exist.

Then of course, there is the strafing of German civilians at Dresden:
Angela's story - Machine-gunning civilian refugees
http://www.timewitnesses.org/english/~angela2.html

and:
'Historians lower death toll in Dresden bombing'
And who were these 'historians'?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5143&p=33338
and:
'A big reason why the 'Allies' need the 'holocaust' storyline'
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5065&p=32791

and the dagger, a must read:

Hannover wrote:Here's a sobering list of references which make it all too clear why the 'Allies' of WWII need the 'holocaust' fraud, it's used in an attempt to deflect and mask the very real genocidal horrors they inflicted upon Germany and others.

- Hannover

from:
http://www.heretical.com/miscellx/blitz.html
Who Started the Blitz?

Image

Between 1940 and 1945, sixty-one German cities with a total population of 25 millions were destroyed or devastated in a bombing campaign initiated by the British government. Destruction on this scale had no other purpose than the indiscriminate mass murder of as many German people as possible quite regardless of their civilian status. It led to retaliatory bombing resulting in 60,000 British dead and 86,000 injured. Hidden from the public

'It is one of the greatest triumphs of modern emotional engineering that, in spite of the plain facts of the case which could never be disguised or even materially distorted, the British public, throughout the Blitz Period (1940-1941), remained convinced that the entire responsibility for their sufferings rested on the German leaders.'
- Advance to Barbarism, F.J.P. Veale.


'It may be Inconvenient History but England rather than Germany initiated the murderous slaughter of bombing civilians thus bringing about retaliation. Chamberlain conceded that it was "absolutely contrary to International law." It began in 1940 and Churchill believed it held the secret of victory. He was convinced that raids of sufficient intensity could destroy Germany's morale, and so his War Cabinet planned a campaign that abandoned the accepted practice of attacking the enemy's armed forces and, instead made civilians the primary target. Night after night, RAF bombers in ever increasing numbers struck throughout Germany, usually at working class housing, because it was more densely packed.'
-The Peoples' War, Angus Calder. London, Jonathan Cape, 1969.*


Hitler forced to retaliate
'Hitler only undertook the bombing of British civilian targets reluctantly three months after the RAF had commenced bombing German civilian targets. Hitler would have been willing at any time to stop the slaughter. Hitler was genuinely anxious to reach with Britain an agreement confining the action of aircraft to battle zones... Retaliation was certain if we carried the war into Germany... there was a reasonable possibility that our capital and industrial centres would not have been attacked if we had continued to refrain from attacking those of Germany... We began to bomb objectives on the German mainland before the Germans began to bomb objectives on the British mainland... Because we were doubtful about the psychological effect of propagandist distortion of the truth that it was we who started the strategic bombing offensive, we have shrunk from giving our great decision of May 11th, 1940, the publicity it deserves.'
-J.M. Spaight, CB, CBE, Principal Secretary to the Air Ministry, Bombing Vindicated.


'The attack on the Ruhr was therefore an informal invitation to the Luftwaffe to bomb London. The primary purpose of these raids was to goad the Germans into undertaking reprisal raids of a similar character on Britain. Such raids would arouse intense indignation in Britain against Germany and so create a war psychosis without which it would be impossible to carry on a modern war.' The Royal Air Force, 1939-1945, The Fight at Odds, p. 122. Dennis Richards, Her Majesty's Stationery Office.

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High Street, Düren, June 1946

The most uncivilised form of warfare
The eminent British war historian and strategist Captain Sir Basil Liddell Hart declared that by this strategy victory had been achieved "through practising the most uncivilised means of warfare that the world had known since the Mongol invasions"
(The Evolution of Warfare. 1946, p. 75).
It was "absolutely contrary to international law" (Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain).

'The inhabitants of Coventry, for example, continued to imagine that their sufferings were due to the innate villainy of Adolf Hitler without a suspicion that a decision, splendid or otherwise, of the British War Cabinet, was the decisive factor in the case.'
- F.J.P. Veale, Advance to Barbarism, p. 169.
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Duren, 1946


Slaying in the name of the Lord
'I am in full agreement [with terror bombing]. I am all for the bombing of working class areas in German cities. I am a Cromwellian – I believe in "slaying in the name of the Lord!"'
- Sir Archibald Sinclair, Secretary for Air.

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Hamburg, 1946

Industrial workers, wives and children targetted

'They [the British Air Chiefs] argued that the desired result, of reducing German industrial production, would be more readily achieved if the homes of the workers in the factories were destroyed; if the workers were kept busy arranging for the burial of their wives and children, output might reasonably be expected to fall... It was concentrated on working class houses because, as Professor Lindemann maintained, a higher percentage of bloodshed per ton of explosives dropped could be expected from bombing houses built close together, rather than by bombing higher class houses surrounded by gardens.'
- Advance to Barbarism, F.J.P. Veale

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Hamburg, 1946

So cowardly it had to be hidden
'One of the most unhealthy features of the bombing offensive was that the War Cabinet – and in particular the Secretary for Air, Archibald Sinclair (now Lord Thurso), felt it necessary to repudiate publicly the orders which they themselves had given to Bomber Command.'
- R.H.S. Crossman, MP, Labour Minister of Housing. Sunday Telegraph, 1 October 1961.

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Hamburg, 1946

By weight, more bombs were dropped on the city of Berlin than were released on the whole of Great Britain during the entire war.
All German towns and cities above 50,000 population were from 50% to 80% destroyed. Hamburg was totally destroyed and 70,000 civilians died in the most appalling circumstances whilst Cologne was likewise turned into a moon-scape. As Hamburg burned the winds feeding the three mile high flames reached twice hurricane speed to exceed 150 miles per hour. Trees three feet in diameter on the outskirts of the city were sucked from the ground by the supernatural forces of these winds and hurled miles into the city-inferno, as were vehicles, men, women and children.
'What we want to do in addition to the horrors of fire is to bring the masonry crashing down on the Boche, to kill Boche and to terrify Boche' - - 'Bomber' Butch Harris, quoted in the Sunday Times, 10 January 1993.

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- Hamburg, 1946

Dresden: Children machine-gunned
The strafing of columns of refugees by both American and British fighter planes was par for the course: "it is said that these [zoo] animals and terrified groups of refugees were machine-gunned as they tried to escape across the Grosser Garten by low-flying planes and that many bodies riddled by bullets were found later in this park"
- Der Tod von Dresden, Axel Rodenberger, 25 February 1951.

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Hamburg
In Dresden, "even the huddled remnants of a children's' choir were machine-gunned in a street bordering a park" (David Irving, The Destruction of Dresden). "I think we shall live to rue the day we did this, and that it [the bombing of Dresden] will stand for all time as a blot on our escutcheon"
- Richard Stokes, M.P.

'... the long suppressed story of the worst massacre in the history of the world. The devastation of Dresden in February, 1945, was one of those crimes against humanity whose authors would have been arraigned at Nuremberg if that court had not been perverted.
- Rt. Hon. Richard. H.S. Crossman, MP, Labour Government Minister.


Firestorm of Hamburg
'Its horror is revealed in the howling and raging of the firestorms, the hellish noise of exploding bombs and the death cries of martyred human beings as well as the big silence after the raids. Speech is impotent to portray the measure of the horror, which shook the people for ten days and nights and the traces of which were written indelibly on the face of the city and its inhabitants. No flight of imagination will ever succeed in measuring and describing the gruesome scenes of horror in the many buried air shelters. Posterity can only bow its head in honour of the fate of these innocents, sacrificed by the murderous lust of a sadistic enemy.' - - - The Police President of Hamburg.

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'Three-hundred times as many people died in Hamburg during the ten-day blitz as died in Coventry during the entire course of the war... Not even Hiroshima and Nagasaki, suffering the smashing blows of nuclear explosions, could match the utter hell of Hamburg.'
- Martin Caidin, The Night Hamburg Died, Ballantyne Books, NY, 1960.


The children
'Of the children these dreadful nights, what can be said? Their fright became horror and then panic when their tiny minds became capable of grasping the fact that their parents could no longer help them in their distress. They lost their reason and an overwhelming terror took over. Their world had become the shrieking centre of an erupting volcano from which there could be no physical escape. Nothing that hell offered could be feared more. 'By the hand of man they became creatures, human in form but not in mind. Strangled noises hissed from them as they staggered pitifully through the streets in which tar and asphalt ran as streams. Some of these tiny creatures ran several hundred feet. Others managed only twenty, maybe ten feet. Their shoes caught fire and then their feet. The lower parts of their legs became flickering sticks of flame. Here were Joans of Arcs... thousands of them. All who had perished unjustly on the fires of the Middle Ages were as nothing when compared with what was happening that night. 'The sounds of many were unintelligible and undoubtedly many more called for their parents from whom they were parted by death or by accident. They grasped their tortured limbs, their tiny burning legs until they were no longer able to stand or run. And then they would crash to the ground where they would writhe in the bubbling tar until death released them from their physical misery.'
- Martin Caidin


Phosphorous, used contrary to international law
'Men, women and children too, ran hysterically, falling and stumbling, getting up, tripping and falling again, rolling over and over. Most of them managed to regain their feet and made it to the water. But many of them never made it and were left behind, their feet drumming in blinding pain on the overheated pavements amidst the rubble, until there came one last convulsing shudder from the smoking "thing" on the ground, and then no further movement.'
- Martin Caidin, The Night Hamburg Died.

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'Phosphorous burns were not infrequent.'
- U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey.

'Phosphorous was used "because of its demonstrated ability to depress the morale of the Germans."
- Official British source.


'Even the senseless and highly culture-destroying terror acts, against for example, Lubeck and Dresden, carried out by the Allied pilots, should have been investigated and brought before a proper court of justice.'
- Major General H. Bratt, Royal Swedish Army *[/quote

'A nation which spreads over another a sheet of inevitably deadly gases or eradicates entire cities from the earth by the explosion of atomic bombs, does not have the right to judge anyone for war crimes; it has already committed the greatest atrocity equal to no other atrocity; it has killed – amidst unspeakable torments – hundreds of thousands of innocent people.'
- Hon. Lydio Machado Bandeira de Mello, Professor of Criminal Law; author of more than 40 works on law/philosophy *



'As for crimes against humanity, those governments which ordered the destruction of German cities, thereby destroying irreplaceable cultural values and making burning torches out of women and children, should also have stood before the bar of justice.'
- Hon. Jaan Lattik. Estonian statesman, diplomat and historian *


From Michael Walsh, Witness to History, Historical Review Press 1996. Edited, with additions marked * by the National Journal. Photographs from Victor Gollancz, In Darkest Germany, Victor Gollancz Ltd, London 1947.[/quote]
LETTER TO PBS
Dr. A.R. WESSERLE

16 March 1981

PBS Television
"The Blitz"

Sirs:

Rarely have I come across a television broadcast more vicious in intent and more warped in execution than your recent "Blitz on Britain." As a survivor of the mass air raid executed against my native city of Prague, Bohemia, on the Christian Holy Day of Palm Sunday, 1945, by the Anglo-American strategic bomber force – a raid that maimed or murdered thousands a few seconds before the conclusion of the Second World War – I say this:

1. There can be no comparison between the brutality of the Anglo-American bomber offensive, on one hand, and the minimality of the German-Italian efforts, on the other.

As the commander of the British strategic air offensive, Air Marshal Sir Arthur Harris shows in his Bomber Offensive (Macmillan, New York, 1947), 23 German cities had more than 60 percent of their built-up area destroyed; 46 had half of it destroyed. 31 communities had more than 500 acres obliterated: Berlin, 6427 acres: Hamburg, 6200 acres; Duesseldorf, 2003; Cologne (through air attack), 1994. By contrast, the three favorite targets of the Luftwaffe: London, Plymouth and Coventry, had 600 acres, 400, and just over 100 acres destroyed.

2. Anglo-American strategic bombers, according to official sources of the West German government in 1962, dropped 2,690,000 metric tons of bombs on Continental Europe; 1,350,000 tons were dropped on Germany within its 1937 boundaries; 180,000 tons on Austria and the Balkans; 590,000 tons on France; 370,000 tons on Italy; and 200,000 tons on miscellaneous targets such as Bohemia, Slovakia and Poland. By contrast, Germany dropped a total of 74,172 tons of bombs as well as V-1 and V-2 rockets and "buzz bombs" on Britain – five percent of what the Anglo-Saxons rained down on Germany.

The Federal German Government has established the minimum count – not an estimate – of 635,000 German civilians were killed in France, Italy, Rumania, Hungary, Czecheslovakia, and elsewhere.

3. Both Germany and Britain initiated air raids on naval and military targets as of 3 September 1939. However, when the British attacks on port installations in Northern Germany ended in disaster, with a devastating majority of bombers downed – the Battle of the German Bight – Britain switched over to less costly night air raids on civilian targets such as Berlin and the Ruhr industrial region. By contrast, Germany replied in kind only in the winter months of 1940/41, a year later.

Observers indubitably British, such as the late Labour Minister Crossman, the scientist and writer C.P. Snow, and the Earl of Birkenhead, have demonstrated that it was not Germany but Britain that, after May, 1940, unleashed an official policy of unrestricted and unlimited raids on civilian populations under its new Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, and his science advisor, Dr. Lindemann. Professor Lindemann, the later Viscount Cherwell, coolly calculated that, by using a force of 10,000 heavy bombers to attack and destroy the 58 largest German cities, one-third of the population of Germany would be "de-housed." The assumption, of course, also was that out of those 25-27 million homeless at least ten percent – 2.5 to 3 million people – would be killed. On this score alone, Winston Churchill and his advisors deserve to rank among the maddest mass murderers in history. In fact, as West German records show, 131 German towns were hit by heavy strategic raids. Only the courage of the Luftwaffe pilots, the effectiveness of the air defense network and the strength of the fire fighting organization worked together to prevent a bloodbath to the extent envisioned by the Prime Minister.

4. Blood baths did occur when conditions were right.

When the Anglo-American bombing policy reached its first grand climax in a raid on Hamburg that stretched over several days and nights in July, 1943, a minimum of 40,000 to 50,000 civilians burned to death.

With the defensive power of the Reich worn down in the second half of 1944 and in 1945, the Anglo-Saxons indulged in ever more massive extermination raids against Europe. Communities of little or no military value, even if attacked previously, were now pulverized, preferably under conditions of the utmost horror. Christian holy days, and dates and sites of famous art festivals were select occasions for raids. Many of the most beautiful cities of Europe and the world were systematically pounded into nothingness, often during the last weeks of the war, among them: Wuerzburg, Hildesheim, Darmstadt, Kassel, Nuremberg, Braunschweig. Little Pforzheim in south-west Germany had 17,000 people killed. Dresden, one of the great art centers and in 1945 a refuge for perhaps a million civilians, was decimated with the loss of at least 100,000 souls. Europe from Monte Cassino to Luebeck and Rostock on the Baltic, from Caen and Lisieux in France to Pilsen, Prague, Bruenn, Budapest and Bucharest reeled under the barbaric blows of the bombers.

5. Nor did the extermination raids stop with Europe.

Cigar-chomping General Curtis LeMay demonstrated in. the Far East that record kills could be achieved without resort to atomic weapons. By applying the lessons learned in Europe to the wooden architecture of the Asian mainland and Japan he raised "fire storms" which surpassed even those of Hamburg, Pforzheim and Dresden. Mass raids by superheavy B-29 bombers against Osaka, Nagoya, Kobe and particularly, Tokyo-Yokohama, resulted in a minimum harvest of 125,000 to 150,000 kills per raid. More than 1.2 million Japanese civilians were killed through bombing. Millions of others fell victim to it, from Mukden, Manchuria, to Rangoon, Burma.

It goes without saying that LeMay and his colleagues could not have carried out their campaigns of mass annihilation without the backing of the highest political leaders in the land. In fact, the United States Government had placed orders for the immediate development of four-engined, superheavy, very-long-range bombers (the XB 15, the B-17, the XB 19, the B-24 and the B-29) starting in 1934.

Thus, the Roosevelt Administration had begun to lay plans for offensive, strategic, global war back in 1933, the year of its inception. With the later exception of Britain, none of the other "large" powers followed suit: neither France, Italy and Germany, nor Soviet Russia and Japan the latter with extensive holdings in the Pacific.

These are sobering facts. PBS, with its record of fine programming, has much to lose if it insists on presenting biased reports such as "Blitz on Britain" or "UXB." If you care to tap the unplumbed depths of sentimentality, envy and hatred, start a comic strip. In the meantime, we'll change channels.

Give poor Alistair Cooke, who has been mightily discomfited of late, a much-needed respite.

Sincerely,
Dr. A. R. Wesserle
Andreas R. Wesserle, Letter to PBS, Journal for Historical Review, Vol. 2, no. 4 (Winter 1981), p. 381.


Revisionists, right again.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: 67 years ago: A real Holocaust

Postby Dresden » 8 years 2 days ago (Tue Feb 14, 2012 4:18 pm)

Good post, Hannover!
And to think that all this was happening while Jews were being "worked" to death in the Auschwitz Brothel, and spraining their ankles on the Soccer field!
Maybe, just maybe, they believe what they are telling you about the 'holocaust', but maybe, just maybe, their contempt for your intelligence and your character is beyond anything you could ever have imagined. -- Bradley Smith


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