An official revision of Majdanek ?

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Reviso
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An official revision of Majdanek ?

Postby Reviso » 5 years 11 months ago (Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:58 am)

On the site of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, you can read : "Though many scholars have traditionally counted the Majdanek camp as a sixth killing center, recent research had shed more light on the functions and operations at Lublin/Majdanek. Within the framework of Operation Reinhard, Majdanek primarily served to concentrate Jews whom the Germans spared temporarily for forced labor. It occasionally functioned as a killing site to murder victims who could not be killed at the Operation Reinhard killing centers: Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka II. It also contained a storage depot for property and valuables taken from the Jewish victims at the killing centers."

See here :
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10005145

Do you know where this "recent research" was published ? Thanks beforehand.
R.



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Re: An official revision of Majdanek ?

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 11 months ago (Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:59 pm)

I visited Majdanek on October 31, November 1 & 2, 2012.

My knowledge of the camp wasn't (isn't) extensive, but I had been led to believe by both Orthodox and revisionist sources, that there were four homicidal "gas chambers" at the camp. So I was a little surprised when I got there, and discovered the Majdanek museum now claims there were just two.

At Majdanek, there are a total of four gas chambers, according to the guide book, which says that the gas chamber (pictured below) next to the shower room was "a makeshift chamber which presumably had begun functioning before the other three were opened."
- Jewish Virtual Library
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... anek2.html


This is the former "gas chamber" next to the shower room in Block 41. The Majdanek museum, no longer claims it was "a makeshift chamber which presumably had begun functioning before the other three were opened."
Image

Pictured below is the museum sign in the former homicidal gas chamber pictured above, the text reads:
The dressing room was also adapted to disinfect prisoners' clothes, using a chemical known as Zyklon B. To activate this, heated air was forced inside via pipes installed within the wall. The gas was ventilated through holes in the ceiling. The disinfected clothes were stored in the adjoining room (which currently displays a collection of Zyklon B cans).

Image

Mattogno states that there were originally 6 gas chambers at Majdanek, but soon after increased to seven. But when he wrote his Majdanek book with Graf in 1999 (I think), there was just four gas chambers. But since then, two more gas chambers have been dropped by the Majdanek museum.
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Re: An official revision of Majdanek ?

Postby Mkk » 5 years 11 months ago (Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:19 pm)

to murder victims who could not be killed at the Operation Reinhard killing centers: Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka II.

Notice no explanation from USHMM as to why the non-existent victims could not be killed at the specially constructed extermination camps.
"Truth is hate for those who hate the truth"- Auchwitz lies, p.13

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Re: An official revision of Majdanek ?

Postby tomtruthteller » 5 years 11 months ago (Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:06 pm)

TheBlackRabbitofInlé:

Mattogno states that there were originally 6 gas chambers at Majdanek, but soon after increased to seven. But when he wrote his Majdanek book with Graf in 1999 (I think), there was just four gas chambers. But since then, two more gas chambers have been dropped by the Majdanek museum.


I do not doubt what you posted blackrabit, but can you provide sources for that statement?

Are there any maps and photos of the two remaining gas chambers?

Of the 78,000 deaths claimed for Majdanek (revised down from 2 million) how many does the museum say died in the two gas chambers?

Thanks beforehand for your answers and any other information that you can offer.

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Re: An official revision of Majdanek ?

Postby haarp1 » 5 years 11 months ago (Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:52 pm)

I was wondering how the exterminationists are able to claim the chamber in Majdenek was homicidal because of the obvious blue stains yet in Auschwitz no blue stains yet they claim the same thing. How are they able to justify both claims when they contradict each other.

I've heard the argument that they used to 'wash down the walls inbetween gassings' if that's the case why didn't they do the same thing at Majdenek? Not that making the walls damp would stop staining...

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Re: An official revision of Majdanek ?

Postby friedrichjansson » 5 years 11 months ago (Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:59 pm)

tomtruthteller wrote:Of the 78,000 deaths claimed for Majdanek (revised down from 2 million) how many does the museum say died in the two gas chambers?


I don't know about the Majdanek museum, but the USHMM says that the number gassed is unknown. It believes there were two zyklon gas chambers at least one of which was homicidal, and possibly also a CO gas chamber - 1, 2, or 3 homicidal gas chambers in all.


http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10007298

GAS CHAMBERS BUILT IN MAJDANEK
October 1942-September 1943
The SS constructs two, possibly three gas chambers at Majdanek to eliminate those prisoners no longer capable of work. Reportedly, both Zyklon B and carbon monoxide gas are used to kill human beings. In one, possibly two cases, large numbers of Jews are sent to Majdanek to be killed upon arrival, though available records are insufficient to estimate how many were killed upon arrival. In November and December 1942, as Belzec closes down, around 25,000 Jews are diverted to Majdanek: at least some, possibly all, were killed upon arrival. In April-May 1943, the SS and Police deport between 18,000 and 22,000 Warsaw Jews to Majdanek; it is possible that thousands were killed upon arrival.



http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php ... d=10005190

In the winter of 1941-1942, camp authorities began to use Zyklon B gas to murder prisoners too weak to work in a makeshift gas chamber. Mass murder operations using poison gas began at Majdanek in October 1942 and continued until the end of 1943. There appear to have been three gas chambers at Majdanek; at least two were shower rooms reconfigured for use of Zyklon B gas. At least one of these two was used to kill human beings. Some sources refer to a third gas chamber, which reportedly used carbon monoxide gas as a means of murder.


The latter page doesn't quite agree with the former on the chronology, but that's probably the least of their worries.


I was wondering how the exterminationists are able to claim the chamber in Majdenek was homicidal because of the obvious blue stains yet in Auschwitz no blue stains yet they claim the same thing. How are they able to justify both claims when they contradict each other.


I've never seen an exterminationist discuss this question, but revisionists have supplied their answer for them (see the Mattogno/Graf Majdanek book): they need to claim that the chambers were used for both delousing and homicidal gassing, and that the blue stains are the result of the delousing rather than the gassing.

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Re: An official revision of Majdanek ?

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 11 months ago (Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:40 am)

tomtruthteller wrote:TheBlackRabbitofInlé:

But since then, two more gas chambers have been dropped by the Majdanek museum.


I do not doubt what you posted blackrabit, but can you provide sources for that statement?

Are there any maps and photos of the two remaining gas chambers?

Of the 78,000 deaths claimed for Majdanek (revised down from 2 million) how many does the museum say died in the two gas chambers?

Thanks beforehand for your answers and any other information that you can offer.


The Polish-Soviet commission found six homicidal gas chambers at Majdanek. Later, a seventh gas chambers was conveniently discovered in the building of the new crematorium [...]

The four remaining gas chambers are more interesting. All of them are located in barrack 41 near the present entrance of the camp. Barrack 41, which housed a bath and a delousing chamber, is the first building the tourists visit.

- Jurgen Graf, 1998
http://vho.org/aaargh/engl/JGmajdanek.html


Image
This is the same room as pictured in my original post. But this photo is labelled in the 2003 English translation of the 1998 Mattogno and Graf book on Majdanek:
"Barrack 41, gas chamber, window in the east wall."
http://vho.org/GB/Books/ccm/14.html


Block 41 is the one on the right on this Google map. The two remaining gas chambers, and one former gas chamber (not the one pictured above) are all in the little bunker at the rear of Block 41. If you look also at the photos on the blog link below, you'll figure it out.
http://goo.gl/maps/tFBWR

I doubt the Majdanek museum had the dropping of two more gas chambers hailed in the msm. But as you can see from the museum sign in my original post, and from what M&G wrote. The room pictured above, was a "gas chamber" in 1998, but in 2012, it's not.

The the other dropped gas chambers (since Graf's speech in 1998), I've labelled as 'Door B' on the blog post below:
http://winstonsmithministryoftruth.blog ... danek.html

You should read at least this chapter from Mattogno & Graf's book on Majdanek.
http://vho.org/GB/Books/ccm/7.html

The flashy booklet I brought in the Majdanek visitor centre states:
About 60 thousand Jews and 20 thousand people of other nationalities (majority of which were Polish) were killed in konzentrationslager Lublin.
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Re: An official revision of Majdanek ?

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 11 months ago (Sat Dec 29, 2012 12:57 am)

friedrichjansson wrote:I don't know about the Majdanek museum, but the USHMM says that the number gassed is unknown. It believes there were two zyklon gas chambers at least one of which was homicidal, and possibly also a CO gas chamber - 1, 2, or 3 homicidal gas chambers in all.


The Majdanek Museum sign immediately next two the remaining gas chambers claims:

Image
Smaller chamber: Zyklon B and CO used to kill people

Image
Larger chamber: CO only used to kill people (no hole in ceiling)

Image
Museum sign in the Bunker at the rear of Block 41 i.e. next to the two gas chambers.
Enlarged version: http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/bbbd908878b ... e4a4ec.jpg

Image
What's also strange. Is that although there's a hole in the ceiling of the Smaller chamber for dropping in Zyklon B, there isn't a corresponding hole in the actual roof!

Edited for typo.
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Re: An official revision of Majdanek ?

Postby tomtruthteller » 5 years 11 months ago (Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:26 am)

Thank you for your response blackrabbit. However, I'm still a bit confused. But before I go on, let me add my two cents worth to this subject. It seems to me that the promoters of the ugly myth maliciously use the term "gas chamber" when they are talking about both delousing rooms and alleged homocidal gas chambers. (There should be a distiction made between a room and an alleged "chamber" as well.) Some people do make that distinction here, but not everyone and not all the time. I think it would do much good for people like me who are new to this subject if everyone made that distinction all the time.

With that said, let me see if I understand you correctly. (I am only interested in what the Majdanek Museum says, not what the USHMM has to say.)

After once claiming that there were as many as 7 homocidal gas chambers at Majdanek, the Majdanek Museum now claims that there were only two. And these two "homocidal" gas chambers are housed in the same small bunker as a delousing room and a bath. One of the gas chambers has no blue stains and one does, and, the one with the blue stains has a window and no hole in the roof?

Thanks for you help and understanding blackrabbit.

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Re: An official revision of Majdanek ?

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:23 am)

tomtruthteller wrote:After once claiming that there were as many as 7 homocidal gas chambers at Majdanek, the Majdanek Museum now claims that there were only two.

Yes.
tomtruthteller wrote:And these two "homocidal" gas chambers are housed in the same small bunker as a delousing room and a bath.

Not quite.

Image
source: http://vho.org/GB/c/CM/Crowell-final-eng.html

Block 41 is the one on the right. And the original 4 "homicidal gas chambers" (hereafter: HCGs) are shown as A, B1, B2 and C.

Presently, only 'A' and 'B1' are claimed to have been HCGs by the Majdanek Museum. 'B2' isn't explained by museum signs nor on the pamphlet I brought at the camp. And 'C' is the one below (as described in my 1st post on this thread).

Image

Below is a photo of the showers in Block 41. This shower room is adjacent to the room ('C') pictured above.

Image

tomtruthteller wrote:One of the gas chambers has no blue stains and one does,

Yes.

HCG 'A' a.k.a. 'the larger chamber' (pictured below) has a huge amount of Prussian Blue staining, although the Majdanek Museum claims only CO was used here, as this HGC has no "Zyklon B introduction hole' in the ceiling.

Image

tomtruthteller wrote:and, the one with the blue stains has a window and no hole in the roof?

No. Neither of the remaining HCGs has a window. It is former-HCG 'C' that has a window, see above.

HCG 'BA' a.k.a. 'the smaller chamber' (pictured below) has no Prussian Blue staining although, the Majdanek Museum claims both CO & Zyklon B was used here.

This chamber does have a hole in the ceiling, but as I've already mentioned, it doesn't have a hole in the actual roof.

Image

Big But: Blue Staining

You need to read Mattogno's book (which is sort of out of date now—not his fault—as two HCG have now been dropped since he wrote it). In the remaining HCG i.e. 'A' and 'B1' Mattogno provides evidence and persuasive arguments about there real uses of these two 'HCG', which did evolve over time, and explains the Blue Staining in 'A'.

The Bunker at rear of Block 41, which contains the last two HCG was heavily modified after the war, it wasn't even attached to Block 41 beforehand.

The Museum claims the original cover (below) was damaged in a hurricane in 1946, and the present roof is a post-war adaptation.

Image
http://www.majdanek.eu/articles.php?acid=185&lng=1
Image
http://collections.yadvashem.org/photos ... _6579.html

But those photo don't have the gully that surrounds the bunker and Block 41, which the Germans built to hold the water containing cyanide used in the delousing process, stopping it from getting in the water-table.

Image

Image

So perhaps those two old photos are of the first two dropped HCGs, but being the gangsters they are, they past off the photos as being of Block 41's Bunker.

edited for typo.
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Re: An official revision of Majdanek ?

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:11 am)

TheBlackRabbitofInlé wrote:
tomtruthteller wrote:and, the one with the blue stains has a window and no hole in the roof?

No. Neither of the remaining HCGs has a window. It is former-HCG 'C' that has a window, see above.


That needs to be better explained.

There's no window proper in either of the two remaining HGCs, but there is the 'SS Observation Window' in HGC 'B1'.

I took this photo (below) inside the 'Bunker' at the rear of Block 41. The door on the right leads into HGC 'B1' a.k.a. 'the smaller chamber', and the doorway on the left leads into the tiny SS room where they kept the bottle CO, and had a small observation window into HGC 'B1
Image

(below) The SS room, the bottled CO and the 'Observation window' into HGC 'B1'
Image
Nazis tried to create super-soldiers, using steroids ... they sought to reanimate the dead—coffins of famous Germanic warriors were found hidden in a mine, with plans to bring them back to life at the war’s end.
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Re: An official revision of Majdanek ?

Postby tomtruthteller » 5 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 31, 2012 10:37 am)

Thanks a lot blackrabbit, much appreciated. I will do some more studying before I ask anymore questions about Majdanek's "HGC's".

But from what I have learned so far, I can say for sure that the Majdanek museum staff has lowered the original claimed death toll by 96.1% (from 2 million down to 78,000) and no forensic investigation of Majdanek has ever resulted in the publication of a scientific report that substantiates that any single place at Majdanek was ever used as a homicidal gas chamber. And not one person has ever been proven to have died via poison gas of any kind at the camp.

I do want to look into the question of the alleged mass graves though before I get any deeper into the "HGC's" issue and I think there are other threads that touch on that.

Thanks again B.R.

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Re: An official revision of Majdanek ?

Postby tomtruthteller » 5 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:30 pm)

I thought this might be of some interest and hopefully this thread is a good place to share this.

The following is a map I found on the "State Museum at Majdanek" web page (It takes some time to load):

http://www.majdanek.eu/articles.php?acid=204&lng=1

Notice that no mass graves are claimed to exist at the camp, unless the "execution ditches" are supposed to contain human remains. (But that is not how I read it. Click on the yellow "22" icon for the commentary.)

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Re: An official revision of Majdanek ?

Postby TheBlackRabbitofInlé » 5 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:25 pm)

No worries Tom. Please excuse my 'HCG' issue. :oops: I didn't even know it was possible to misspell (repeatedly) an acronym.

This is the museum sign by the "execution ditches".

Image

And how they look today:

Image
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Re: An official revision of Majdanek ?

Postby tomtruthteller » 5 years 11 months ago (Mon Dec 31, 2012 8:15 pm)

I found this on another thread and thought it would be a good idea to bring it back to life on this thread:

Unanswered Questions Regarding the Physical Evidence at the Majdanek Concentration Camp (Poland)
from: 'Forty-Six Important Unanswered Questions Regarding the Nazi Gas Chambers'

by David Cole

http://www.codoh.com/gcgv/gc46-ORIGI.HTML

Gas chamber 1 has two doors, both of which open INTO the gas chamber room. How can a homicidal gas chamber have two doors which open IN? Wouldn't the bodies be pressed up against the doors, as described numerous times by eyewitnesses?

The main door into the gas chamber 1 has no locks. It can be opened from either the inside or the outside. There are no holes or fittings where a lock might have been. What stopped the inmates from opening this door?

Gas chamber 1 has a plate glass window in it. There are no holes or fittings around the window where bars or any other kind of cover might once have been. Since the plaster around the window is covered with blue stains, we know that it is the plaster that existed during the time Zyklon B gas was used in this room. If there WERE bars or any other type of cover attached to this window, why are there no traces? What would have stopped the inmates from trying to climb out the window, or breaking the window and causing a gas leak?

There is a room INSIDE gas chamber 1. Why would there be a separate room INSIDE a gas chamber? Doesn't this room indicate that gas chamber 1 was used for something OTHER than killing people?

Gas chambers 2 and 3 are designed backwards. Chamber 2 has a Zyklon B induction hole in the ceiling, but no Zyklon B traces or blue stains. Chamber 3 has heavy, floor-to-ceiling Zyklon B traces and blue stains, but no Zyklon B induction hole. And, like the roof of Krema 2 at Auschwitz, the ceiling shows no sign of a hole having ever been there. Why would chamber 2 have a Zyklon B induction hole and no traces, and chamber 3 plenty of traces but no hole?

The ceilings in chambers 2 and 4 are low enough so that the Zyklon B induction holes could have been blocked by the victims. What would have stopped the inmates from blocking the holes?

The doors to chambers 2,3 and 4 are built to latch from the outside AND the inside. The latches can be opened from either side. Does this suggest that the rooms were used for something other than killing people?

Getting back to the issue of hemispherical grids covering the peepholes, it is said that the point of these grids was to prevent the inmates from breaking the glass of the peepholes and causing a gas leak. Yet the hemispherical grids attached to the peepholes on the doors of chambers 2, 3 and 4 are attached on the OUTSIDE of the doors. These grids wouldn't prevent someone INSIDE the room from breaking the glass...but they WOULD prevent someone OUTSIDE the room from doing so. Why are the grids not on the inside? Does this contradict with the statements by Pressac and the eyewitnesses regarding the need for grids in a homicidal gas chamber?

The Majdanek camp is built on a hill. At the top of the hill is the camp crematorium. At the opposite end of the camp, at the bottom of the hill, is the "Bath and Disinfection" complex, which houses the gas chambers. From the Nazi's point of view, what was the wisdom in putting the gas chambers at the opposite end of the camp from the ovens, and at the bottom of the hill (after each gassing, the dead bodies would have to have been dragged up the hill, the length of the entire camp, to the ovens)?

As the Nazis were preparing to abandon the Majdanek camp, they destroyed the crematorium building. Why were the gas chambers not similarly destroyed? Why would the Nazis leave their weapons of mass murder intact for the world to see? How hard would it have been for the Nazis to destroy the gas chambers, just like they did the crematorium building? At least, shouldn't the Nazis have filled in the Zyklon B induction holes, which serve as direct proofs of homicidal gassings? Either way, the destruction of the crematorium is clear proof that the Nazis had both the time and the ability to demolish buildings in the camp if they wanted to. Why were the gas chambers not demolished?

In his book "Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers", Jean-Claude Pressac publishes a photo of the Majdanek gas chambers, with the caption "Photograph taken at the Majdanek concentration camp in June 1979, showing one of the disinfestation gas chambers thought to be a homicidal gas chamber." On page 555, he also has this to say about the Majdanek gas chambers: "I am sorry to say, and I am not the only one in the West, that the Majdanek homicidal and/or delousing gas chambers are still waiting for a true historian, which is mildly upsetting in view of the fact that the camp fell into the hands of the Russians intact in 1944." Do these comments suggest that the gas chambers at Majdanek may in fact have been disinfestation gas chambers? At least, don't these comments suggest that there has not yet been a thorough investigation into the purpose of these rooms? **

To sum up the Majdanek gas chamber issue: If we take Pressac's comments and then factor in the doors that don't lock, the doors that open INTO the gas chamber, the doors with latches that can be manipulated from both the outside AND the inside, the window in gas chamber 1, the room inside gas chamber 1, the lack of any Zyklon B induction hole in gas chamber 3, the lack of any Zyklon B traces in gas chamber 2 (which DOES have a "Zyklon B induction hole"), the heavy blue stains on the OUTSIDE of the building, and the location of the building, at the bottom of a hill, at the opposite end of the camp from the crematorium, is it reasonable to suggest that these rooms were delousing chambers?


** In what can only be considered an unfortunate example of how major disputes between Holocaust historians are shielded from the public, the same room Pressac describes in his book as a "disinfestation gas chamber" is featured in the book "The World Must Know," the official book of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington D.C., written by Museum director Dr. Michael Berenbaum.

In that book, Berenbaum describes the room as a HOMICIDAL gas chamber and, what's more, a CASTING of this room was made for display AT THE MUSEUM, as PROOF of the homicidal gas chambers! Thus, in both Berenbaum's book AND in the Museum itself, the ONLY material proof given of homicidal gassings is THIS ROOM, a room Pressac staunchly believes to be a disinfestation gas chamber (in fact, in his Auschwitz book, Pressac actually RIDICULES those who say that this Majdanek room is proof of homicidal gassings, and criticizes everyone from the man who prosecuted Faurisson in France to the Majdanek State Museum personnel for perpetuating a fraud).

But does anyone give a damn that the general public, all the millions, might be receiving fraudulent information? Some might suggest that disputes such as these should be kept private so as not to shake the public's confidence in Holocaust history, or in the Holocaust historians. But don't you think we have a RESPONSIBILITY not to knowingly feed the public falsehoods or unproven claims disguised as unquestioned facts? Don't you think we have a responsibility to be honest about our research? If not, what makes us any different from the "historians" of the Soviet Union, or Hitler's Germany, who knowingly tailored their research to produce a politically expedient conclusion? When the ends begin justifying the means, watch integrity go flying out the window.

As bad as the public misinformation about Majdanek is, the Stalin-esque purging of Pressac's "Auschwitz; Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers" from the official record is worse. This master-work of historiography, once loudly heralded in the press (see enclosed clippings), is NOW nowhere to be found when references to Pressac are made. A recent article in "Publishers Weekly," detailing a forthcoming U.S. Holocaust Museum book containing 29 original essays from Holocaust scholars including Berenbaum and Pressac, not only neglects to mention Pressac's gas chamber book, but seems to suggest that Pressac's conversion from revisionist to gas chamber believer came only recently, as he was researching his just-published "slim volume" about the Auschwitz crematorium.

The entire period of the 1980's, which Pressac spent researching his gas chamber book after his "conversion", is omitted.

Yet scholars around the world continue to use Pressac's gas chamber book (if they're lucky enough to have one of the few copies), mainly because, even if one disagrees with Pressac's conclusions, his book is STILL the best (and the only) single source for the blueprints, construction slips, alteration plans, and inter-office communiques regarding the Auschwitz "gas chambers".

Neither side in this debate agrees entirely with Pressac...but for the gas chamber supporters, his book is an embarrassment because it IS so thorough. It is the most thorough work yet produced about the gas chambers, yet Pressac cannot find that elusive objective proof of gassings. So now, apparently, the historians have just decided to pretend the book doesn't exist. I've always referred to the Pressac gas chamber book as the most popular book that never existed!


I have an idea. It's so very confusing to try to keep up with all the different numbers and letters people use to describe the alleged HGC's. (from now on I will call them AHGC's) I have no idea of the numbering system Cole is using. What's needed is a map showing all 7 of the alleged AHGC's, numbered and with photos that can be used as a basis for understanding all this. And it should include information about what the Majdanek museum now admits the formerly AHGC's really are. I know that would be a lot of work and it's very easy for me to suggest that others do such a project, but if Majdanek really is a microcosm of the holohoax (and it looks to me like it is), then someone with a lot of knowledge about Majdanek should try to tackle it. Making things easy to understand for newbies should be priority #1 for an educational site like this.


I would like to add a question to Coles list:

Can you show me a mass grave that contains the remains of people who died at Majdanek?


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