Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

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Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Postby borjastick » 5 years 10 months ago (Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:46 am)

I am taking an interest in the periphery and the imbalance of the subject from various angles and would like some help please.

The case of Oskar Groning is interesting. He we have a man whose record of administration in Auschwitz is not in doubt. He admits to being directly involved in the ramp selections as part of the team that took the jews' possessions and money etc. He claims to have seen the gas chambers and quotes a figure of 1.5 million jews killed in the camp. Yet he was declared innocent and never faced any charges, not that I can see.

I ask you how is this man any less guilty or any more innocent than John Demjanjuk? The case against Demjanjuk was perhaps weaker but they went after him time and time again.

Can anyone fill in the gaps for me, is Groning really that innocent or was he used politically to point the finger and support the gas chamber myths?

Below is some of the page dicussing this man and his role in the BBC Auschwitz documentary, from the holocaust controversies web site.

Oskar Gröning: "I see it as my task, now at my age, to face up to these things that I experienced and to oppose the Holocaust deniers who claim that Auschwitz never happened. And that's why I am here today. Because I want to tell those deniers: I have seen the gas chambers, I have seen the crematoria, I have seen the burning pits - and I want you to believe me that these atrocities happened. I was there."

I emphasized the critical part. Portuguese denier A S Marques wrote a letter to David Irving, in which he pointed out that the words "the gas chambers" were absent from Groening's speech in the documentary itself - both in the original German, and in the translation.

Upon checking, this claim turned out to be correct. Somebody has deliberately inserted the words "the gas chambers" into the transcript, and they've spread over the Web. This is the kind of thing that keeps deniers ticking.


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Re: Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Postby Hektor » 5 years 10 months ago (Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:48 am)

Can you give some sources?

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Re: Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Postby Haldan » 5 years 10 months ago (Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:13 am)

Hektor wrote:Can you give some sources?


Hektor,

Try these:

Whats behind the curtain - Oskar Groening.

Nazi's testimony / Oskar Groening

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Re: Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Postby Hektor » 5 years 10 months ago (Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:04 am)

Is Groening still alive? If yes, this would be an opportunity for an investigative interview.

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Re: Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Postby NLH » 4 years 4 months ago (Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:07 pm)

This is the link to the debunking letter to the documentary quote by him as mentioned above: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Letters/Auschwitz/ ... 50405.html

If you go to his wikipedia page and look at 'views on the holocaust, the same quote is quoted in Rees' book of the same title, apparently taken from the documentary. But clearly this is fake as the documentary makes clear when taking into account the actual audio and the English audio. Here is the video (http://youtu.be/gz9TF_IXmG8). The segment is at 43:34. Gas chambers are not mentioned by him. Is this where Rees got the quote where he uses the term "gas chambers"? If so it's a blatant lie. But I need that checking out.

Also, however, whilst this one can be debunked if the Rees quote is taken from the video, (bare in mind his book is based on the documentary), on the wiki page it gives another reference to another quote saying something similar about gas chambers in a book by Matthias Geyer. But was the Geyer quote taken from audio aswell? If so, and the first quote is shown to be fake by Rees, then I would reasonably want to know if the Geyer quote is a written reference or also based on audio that we can check out for ourselves.

But like I say, Rees' book cannot be taken seriously if based on the documentary.
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Re: Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Postby Kingfisher » 4 years 4 months ago (Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:11 am)

I googled this a while back when it was the subject of another thread here. On that occasion I managed to find the transcript of the programme as supplied by the BBC to other TV stations broadcasting it. IT included "I saw the gas chambers". It would seem, therefore, that this transcript, presumably also used for the subtitling, is the primary source for all the others containing "gas chambers", including Rees's book.

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Re: Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Postby Hektor » 3 years 8 months ago (Mon Mar 30, 2015 1:12 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:I googled this a while back when it was the subject of another thread here. On that occasion I managed to find the transcript of the programme as supplied by the BBC to other TV stations broadcasting it. IT included "I saw the gas chambers". It would seem, therefore, that this transcript, presumably also used for the subtitling, is the primary source for all the others containing "gas chambers", including Rees's book.

Is it this transcription?
http://www.pbs.org/auschwitz/about/transcripts_6.html
Here the claim is made that Groening never said "I saw the gas chambers" on the sound track:
http://newobserveronline.com/bbcs-oskar ... mbers-lie/
also:
http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=100249
Is the video somewhere? Will have to look.

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Re: Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Postby Kingfisher » 3 years 8 months ago (Mon Mar 30, 2015 2:48 pm)



Here is an extract with the original German, English voiceover and Portuguese subtitles. None of them contain "gas chambers".

I choose to show the version with Portuguese subtitles because AS Marques was first to spot this. It seems only the transcript contains the words "gas chambers".

This is an earlier thread: https://forum.codoh.com/search.php?keywords=Oskar&t=3197&sf=msgonly

This link is given in one of the posts in this thread: http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.co.uk/2006/04/when-deniers-are-right.html

Some readers may not yet be aware that Groening is in fact now being prosecuted.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31090925

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Re: Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Postby Hektor » 3 years 8 months ago (Mon Mar 30, 2015 7:02 pm)

Kingfisher wrote:

Here is an extract with the original German, English voiceover and Portuguese subtitles. None of them contain "gas chambers".

I choose to show the version with Portuguese subtitles because AS Marques was first to spot this. It seems only the transcript contains the words "gas chambers".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-31090925

Let me play the devils advocate briefly:"And we can be certain that, for some reason, the phrase 'gas chambers' hasn't been edited out afterwards"?

I found another clip, in French, on this - last 30 seconds are relevant:


I am aware that he's facing prosecution right now. And I wonder why he would go on camera and make such a statement, in fact any statement, against deniers.

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Re: Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Postby k0nsl » 3 years 8 months ago (Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:25 pm)

The following may be of use to some people, or so I hope...

ASMarques on BBC producer Laurence Rees and Oskar Gröning

Don’t you find it strange that Groening can be heard both before and
after the supposed words “I’ve seen the gas chambers”?

Why would they have edited out of the soundtrack precisely those words,
leaving the next words “I’ve seen the crematoria” and so on, with the
list of what he had seen except for the gas chambers?

And if the words are not there and were in fact surreptitiously added to
the transcript in order to be featured in the foreign dubbed versions,
how come Groening would have forgotten the main Auschwitz “attraction”
precisely when he was describing what he had personally seen with his
own eyes, i.e. the most outlandish unbelievable items of all?

The BBC producer Laurence Rees says Groening mentions “gas chambers”
elsewhere on his footage. Not true. Not once in the whole final product
of Rees’s efforts. He can only be referring to unreleased footage, but
if so why would he have edited the relevant part out of his final
version, only to add the words later, in a different place where
Groening doesn’t pronounce them at all and actually talks about
something else?!

Unbelievably idiotic negligence on Rees’s part, or simply another lie,
underlining the lack of convincing explicit footage due no doubt to a
very understandable sense of shamed hesitation on Groening’s part?

Very odd indeed. Here is my take on the subject:

The words were not there, in the original soundtrack, because
Groening is just another poor guy who was fetched and blackmailed into
activity against his best wishes, in order to “keep the memory alive”.
He was half-heartedly doing what was expected of him, while nevertheless
managing to avoid going all the way and confirming the “gas chambers”.

Do I have to remind you of Hoess’s working-hands going into the same gas
chambers, “smoking cigarettes and eating sandwiches”?

Now, why would Hoess tell us such idiocies instead of simply “hey,
folks, I’m actually being forced to tell you a pack of lies”?…

I leave the answer to your imagination. Not much is required.

Back to the 21st century and the latest Jack-in-the-Holocaust-box, Oskar
Groening.

So they simply edited the words into poor Groening’s mouth in the
official distributed text, as Rees now seems to be confessing in his
correspondence with ‘Holocaust Controversies’ here:

https://archive.today/K9MLa

That same text, of course, was the one used for the foreign dubbings,
and that’s that. Anything goes in the happy-go-free world of serious
“Holocaust” publishing & broadcasting…

Unfortunately for Rees, in the original English version both the
superposed English comment and the German words that can be heard
beneath it (if you rewind and pay close attention) give the game away:
the “gas chambers” words are definitely not there.

Now, Rees didn’t get away with it, and therefore, neither did Groening
for long. He probably is singing the right tune now and will do all that
is required of him, but the question remains: since both Groening’s
voice and the superposed English comment agree in the soundtrack and
leave the gas chambers out, what do you call the transcript deemed to
have miraculously created those words backwards in time?…

Don’t be afraid of the words: it’s called a FALSIFICATION.

And here is the wondrous Holocaust world in a nutshell, friends:

David Irving, the historian; Germar Rudolf, the scientist; Ernst
Zündel, the pacifist: all under arrest.

Laurence Rees, the shoa-bizz falsifier: free as a bird and making lots
of money.


Source: https://k0nsl.org/blog/detox/asmarques-on-bbc-producer-laurence-rees-and-oskar-groening/

-k0nsl

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Re: Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Postby Kingfisher » 3 years 8 months ago (Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:40 am)

That same text, of course, was the one used for the foreign dubbings,
and that’s that.

Odd Marques should say that, as the Portuguese subtitles do not mention gas chambers and neither does the French voiceover.

Poor old Groening. Did as he was told, span the story, and now they are out to get him at 93.

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Re: Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Postby NLH » 3 years 8 months ago (Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:02 am)

Found another article on this top by revisionist historian, Peter Winter: 'The BBC’s Oskar Groening “I Saw the Gas Chambers” Lie' (February 3, 2015) - http://peterwinterwriting.blogspot.co.u ... w-gas.html

The BBC’s Oskar Groening “I Saw the Gas Chambers” Lie

The announcement that former SS so-called “Auschwitz bookkeeper” Oskar Groening will go on trial on April 21, 2014, in Germany, has allowed the mass media—and the BBC in particular—to recycle yet another old hoary lie on the topic: namely that he said in a documentary that he had “seen the gas chambers.”

Image

The BBC’s breathless coverage of Groening’s court date, as contained in their article of February 2, 2015, titled “Trialdate set for 'Auschwitz bookkeeper' Groening” is clearly designed to be an attempt to beat back the growing Holocaust revisionist tide.

The BBC article, in a sub-heading called “I saw the gas chambers,” tells its readers that:

“Groening, who began work at Auschwitz aged 21, does not deny witnessing the mass killing at Auschwitz. In 2005 he told the BBC: "I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I was on the ramp when the selections [for the gas chambers] took place."I would like you to believe these atrocities happened—because I was there."

Image

The documentary to which this article refers is the six-episode “Auschwitz: The Nazis and 'The Final Solution'” produced by the BBC and distributed all over the world.

As usual with these sorts of Holocaust stories, the truth is very far from reality.
Groening was a lower-ranking SS man at Auschwitz—but in the BBC documentary, he actually never used the words “gas chambers.”

This is a complete fiction, a made-up insertion.

This overt lie was first pointed out by an alert viewer of the program from Portugal, one A. S. Marques, in a letter to historian David Irving, which was published on the latter’s website.

Marques’ masterful treatment of the “Groening confession” lie cannot be bettered, so here it is, verbatim, asoriginally published:

A. S. Marques of Portugal has spotted, Saturday, April 16, 2005, how BBC producer Laurence Rees faked what a German "eye-witness of gas chambers" actually said.


What Gröning actually said

I HAVE just read the article "The fight against Holocaust denial" by Raffi Berg, quoted by your site from BBC News. In that article, we read the following:

"The fear that deniers could gain the upper hand led an SS camp guard, Oskar Gröning, to break a lifetime of silence earlier this year in a BBC documentary, Auschwitz: The Nazis and the Final Solution. ‘I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I was on the ramp when the selections [for the gas chambers] took place,' said Mr Gröning, now in his 80s. 'I would like you to believe these atrocities happened— because I was there.'"

Mr. Berg's quote is intriguing. I happen to have not only watched, but also tape-recorded, the BBC documentary he mentions, when it was broadcast last March 8 [2005] on the Portuguese channel RTP-2, in its original English version subtitled in Portuguese, and I was struck by the contradiction between the subtitles and the actual words one can hear in the film.

They differ in one important detail from what one can distinctly hear, both in the German words spoken by Gröning and their superposed English translation.

The Portuguese subtitles, like Mr. Berg's quote, follow what I gather to be the BBC-distributed text that one can findhere (Groening speaking):

"I see it as my task, now at my age, to face up to these things that I experienced and to oppose the Holocaust deniers who claim that Auschwitz never happened. And that's why I am here today. Because I want to tell those deniers: I have seen the gas chambers, I have seen the crematoria, I have seen the burning pits—and I want you to believe me that these atrocities happened. I was there."

Now here are the actual words one gets in the English superposed commentary, which is a faithful translation of the German words one is also able to hear beneath the English:

"I see it as my task, now at my age, to face up to these things that I experienced and to oppose the Holocaust deniers who claim that Auschwitz never happened. And that's why I am here today. Because I want to tell those deniers: I have seen the crematoria, I have seen the burning pits—and I want you to believe me that these atrocities happened. I was there."

Spot the difference.

Tough luck. Back to Höss's "confessions" (never mind Richard Baer or Arthur Liebehenschel) and, of course, the Germans that also confessed to have seen the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth: Hans Stark (10 years for gassing Jews, under juvenile law due to his age, in the Frankfurt 1963-65 "Auschwitz Trial") and Pery Broad (5 years, same trial)...

A. S. Marques
Lisbon, Portugal.
Here is the actual interview as it appeared on the BBC documentary, where Groening’s actual words can be heard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... VfFHJE0e1g

Once again, we have a classic case of outright lies, combined with a “don’t-deny-it-happened-but-I-was-not-involved” type confession, the sort of which I detailed in Chapter 8: The Psychology of Confessions in The Six Million: Fact orFiction.

Critically, Groening talked about his time at the camp, but denies ever having committed any murders or atrocities himself.

Equally critically, he would of course have seen crematoria, and cremations—these were installations at every single German concentration camp.

The existence of crematoria does not, however, “prove” a mass extermination program, and it is clear that Groening was talked into making his remarks in some type of belief that he would not be prosecuted if he admitted being at the camp.

Now, however, he will soon regret having been willing to comment at all, because his appearance on the BBC documentary, and his resultant “fame” has landed him in court facing no less than 300,000 murder charges.

The only logical—and best—defense against this incredible charge, is of course to show that there were no mass exterminations.

However, unfortunately for Groening—and he has played along with the game, never thinking it would land him in court—this obvious, and only, real defense is illegal in Germany.
Groening now has talked himself into a serious court case, in which his only real defense is against the law. He will have little alternative except to accept that there was a mass extermination program, but claim that he had nothing to do with it.
"Believe me, I came into Auschwitz in a much worse condition than I actually left it."
- Kitty Hart-Moxon, Jewish Holocaust Survivor.

June 1998 testimony, USC Shoah Foundation, Visual History Archive.
Part 2 - YouTube - 1:21:42

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Re: Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Postby unsubscribe » 3 years 7 months ago (Tue Apr 21, 2015 10:28 am)

Anyone can go to a show trial and parrot words, but will Groning allow some top Revs to interview him before his death?

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Re: Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Postby Maly Jacek » 3 years 7 months ago (Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:17 am)

Not very likely he will be allowed to talk to anyone specially revisionists. I would not expect a lot from this orchestrated, mock -trail - he will simply recite what they want to hear in hope of light sentence. What it does show is how desperate they have become....

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Re: Oskar Groning - 'I saw the gas chambers...'

Postby unsubscribe » 3 years 7 months ago (Tue Apr 21, 2015 2:15 pm)

Exactly. Anyone that "dares" to cross examine one iota of his testimony will be labeled a "denier" and an "anti-Semite." Likely all the attorneys are being paid by the same people, and I'd bet anyone remaining will be compensated for his "testimony." Anyone he loves will be set for life.


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