alleged huge, 'known' shooting sites; but no mass graves

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Hannover
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alleged huge, 'known' shooting sites; but no mass graves

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:55 am)

I extracted this from a much earlier post by Sailor, it says a lot.
These are the main places where the Einsatzgruppen allegedly killed large numbers:

Baranovichi, Berdichev, Berezhany, Bialystok, Brest-Litovsk, Brody, Chernovtsy, Derechin, Diatlovo, Dnepropetrovsk, Dvinsk, Gomel, Gorodenka, Grodno, Kedainiai, Kemenets-Podolski, Kharkov, Kherson , Kiev (Babi Yar), Kishinev, Kovel, Kovno, Krasnodar, Kremenchug, Lachva, Liapaja, Lida, Lutsk, Lvov, Minsk (Maly Trostinets), Mogilev, Mogilev-Podolski, Nesvizh, Novogrudok, Odessa, Pinsk, Riga (Rumbutal), Rostov, Rovno, Siauliai, Simteropol, Smolensk, Stonim, Ternopol, Tuchin, Vilna, Vinnitsa, Vitebsk, Volozhin, Zhitomir

And not a single mass grave can be located there....


There is not even ONE mass grave site which supports the absurd allegations within the 'holocaust' story....even though 'eyewitnesses' claim to know the exact locations.

Forensic science over superstition & lies.

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Postby TruthSeeker » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Mar 30, 2004 3:37 am)

Just as a side question since we're on this topic, are there any documents that "prove" that there were mass shootings of Jews by the Einsatzgruppen? I am aware of the other thread titled "Proof of Einsatzgruppen massacre?" and the thread "Einsatzgruppen murder confessions", but they don't seem to provide any proof to the alleged shootings, do they? Or maybe I didn't look close enough.

Incidentally, I was having a discussion about this with an exterminationist just today, and I mentioned that I had not heard of any mass-grave indications for the alleged Einsatzgruppen shootings.

And even if there are "documents" that claim there were shootings, does that prove much? Where are the mass graves? Documents can be forged. Can mass graves be hidden? Is it possible that ALL the mass-graves just disappeared?

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Postby J William » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Mar 30, 2004 7:01 am)

It is beyond belief that any intellectually curious person can accept the mass shootings of Jews just because they were Jews without demanding physical evidence of mass graves and accompanimg forensic evidence. These alleged shootings would leave many traces. Below is an article on mass graves which illustrates the manner in which they remain available for forensic investigation. Think critically about it: where are the mass graves of the alleged murders of Jews on behind the eastern front?

OPENING GRAVE WOUNDS
EVIDENCE OF ISRAELI ATROCITIES DURING THE 1967 WAR WITH EGYPT THREATENS THE COUNTRIES' FRAGILE TIES
FREDERICK PAINTON REPORTED BY AMANY RADWAN/CAIRO AND ERIC SILVER/JERUSALEM

Despite a historic peace treaty between Egypt and Israel, the heritage of two wars in two decades still leaves unexpected and bitter traces. Last week new disclosures that Israeli soldiers massacred Egyptian pows during the 1967 war added to a growing wave of anti-Israeli sentiment in Egypt. The sequence of events leading to the unearthing of two mass graves outside the Sinai city of El Arish last week began a month ago with admissions by Israeli war veterans that unarmed Egyptian civilians and pows were murdered in the 1956 and 1967 wars.

The expedition that discovered the shallow burial sites was organized by the semiofficial Al-Ahram newspaper and guided by Abdel Salam Moussa, 55, a former air force officer who was taken prisoner by the Israelis during the 1967 war. The searchers found human bones and estimated that the first grave contained the remains of approximately 90 people. Recalling the killings, Moussa told Al-Ahram, "I saw a line of prisoners, civilians and military, and they [Israeli troops] opened fire at them all at once. When they were dead, they told us to bury them." Another witness to such shootings, a local Bedouin named Soliman Salama, identified a second grave 27 km away where he said he saw Israelis kill about 30 Egyptian soldiers after they had surrendered.

The fury aroused in Egypt by the apparent proof of massacres was fueled by the press, which matched wartime photos with imaginative illustrations showing Egyptian soldiers surrendering, being ordered to dig their graves, then being executed. Opposition parties and newspapers are pressing President Mubarak to suspend diplomatic ties with Israel until a full investigation into the executions is conducted. Director of Egypt's State Information Service Nabil Osman responded, "This is a very serious issue. The truth has to be made clear. Such crimes are against humanity, and they just don't fade away."

The sudden revival of old resentments threatened to poison relations between Cairo and Tel Aviv, and worse, to undermine a diplomatic alliance that is essential to the process of reaching a broader Middle East settlement. The controversy led Israeli Foreign Minister Shimon Peres to veto Cairo as the site for current talks with the Palestinians over self-rule in the West Bank, explaining that he would have to answer questions about the mass graves.

For the Israelis, who take pride in the morality of their armed forces, the revelations were deeply troubling. Prompted, he said, by conscience, retired Israeli General Arieh Biro admitted last month that he had executed 49 Egyptian pows with submachine gunfire in the 1956 Sinai campaign. The disclosure touched off a bout of soul-searching and prompted Israelis who had witnessed other executions of prisoners to come forward. The newspaper Yediot Aharonot urged a government investigation, not only to satisfy Egyptians but also "for our own sake, our conscience, our beliefs and our principles." Biro, 69, said he had been ordered to advance but lacked the means to take along his Egyptian captives; he could not leave them for fear that they would lead their advancing comrades to Israeli positions. So he killed them. He has "ached over" his actions, he said, but "under the same circumstances, I think I would do it again."

While Egyptian anger was on the rise, the reaction in Israel grew more muted. Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said, "We know that Israeli prisoners were killed many times in the past. Without accepting them, atrocities are part and parcel of war. The Egyptians cannot claim the moral superiority to criticize us, while ignoring whatever their own side did."

The Egyptians are demanding that Israel officially apologize, launch an investigation into the incidents, punish those found guilty and compensate the families of every prisoner of war killed by the Israelis. Israel's Attorney General Michael Ben-Yair ruled last month that there was no basis for prosecuting soldiers for offenses in 1956 and 1967 because of a 20-year statute of limitations on homicide charges. Israel's only war-crimes law, Ben-Yair noted, related to crimes of genocide or crimes committed by Nazis during World War II. While the shootings of pows were "unlawful and intolerable acts," he said, they were not the kind of crimes covered by the law on genocide.

That reasoning has rankled many Egyptians, who point out that Israel has set a precedent in such matters by relentlessly tracking down Nazi war criminals all over the globe. "This is not just a political issue," said retired Major General Ahmed Fakhr, director of the National Center for Middle East Studies in Cairo and a veteran of all three wars, "this is an issue of families who were told that their men were missing in action. Now, after 20 years, they learn they were slaughtered in cold blood by the Israelis." Concludes Fakhr: "The Israelis opened that file, now they have to close it. And peace means justice."

--Reported by Amany Radwan/Cairo and Eric Silver/Jerusalem

Copyright 1995 Time Inc. All Rights Reserved.

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Postby code yellow » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:23 am)

:? Media presentation in the form of documenteries and the like also convey unproven allegations.For instance,I once watched a program on the history chanel wich I beleaved was called Hitler,the rise of evil,or someother typical sounding title.Anyway,at one point of the program,there was a stock footage clip that showed four grown men stepping into a pit and after wich were shot.The narator claims that in 1940,300 men women and children were shot.Now,you and I both know that this is more than likely an Einsatgruppen act,and that the four men were some sort of non-uniformed combatants,but the average person does not.A few minutes later,they show the same clip with the same claim of 300 men women and children,only this time to confuse the viewer,they add a couple of seconds of extra footage to the begining,but it is the same exact footage.This time,however,they give it a different date,1941.It realy is rather insulting that these documenteris continue to present these falsehoods as long as the general public "continues to eat it up".Same thing with the g.damn holocaust.

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Proof of mass graves

Postby David » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Mar 30, 2004 8:43 am)

Truth seeker,
Apparently there are mass graves being found. One was found recently just 3 years ago at Sobibor camp:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1673471.stm

David

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Mar 30, 2004 11:00 am)

David:
That little article was long on assertions, but hopelessly short on facts and evidence. I'm afraid you're behind the curve on this.

From The Revisionist Forum:

Sobibor camp debunked
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=57

more on scammer Kola and his fraudulent mass graves:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=368

and:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=85

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Re: Proof of mass graves

Postby TruthSeeker » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:17 pm)

David wrote:Truth seeker,
Apparently there are mass graves being found. One was found recently just 3 years ago at Sobibor camp:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1673471.stm

David

David,

Some comments about that link:

The researchers say this is evidence that the Nazis burnt their prisoners during the final months of the camp's existence.

So let me get this straight - there were charred remains, as alleged by the researchers. How does that prove they were Jews? And how MUCH remains were found? Note that it doesn't say anything about that. How does that prove that there were mass shootings?

Some 250,000 people, mostly Jews, are thought to have died in the camp.

Thought by who?

"Some crazy voices have denied the existence of the events of that period," said Mr Bartoszewski, a survivor of the Auschwitz concentration camp.

Some crazy voices have claimed and continue to claim that Jews were exterminated, despite the fact that they don't have any proof to support their claims.

In addition to the graves, the researchers also found 1,700 bullets in the corner of a barracks, which they believe mean that the Nazis executed the prisoners there.

So finding bullets = they shot Jews? And "they believe"? That's not evidence.

More research is planned for next year when the ground thaws.

Article dated: Friday, 23 November, 2001
Today's date: Tuesday, 30 March, 2004

Has there been a follow-up on this? If not, why not? Hasn't the ground thawed yet? :)

Hannover, thanks for the links.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:51 pm)

TruthSeeker wrote: Just as a side question since we're on this topic, are there any documents that "prove" that there were mass shootings of Jews by the Einsatzgruppen?


Holocaust historians refer to the so called "Operational Situation Reports" in connection with these massacres.

A copy of these reports was allegedly found by the Americans in the western part of Berlin, after the Soviets withdrew from there.

Revisionists (Butz, Graf, Rudolf, Mattogno et al) question the correctness of the numbers of victims listed in these documents, which were written in Berlin, based on input from the front.

I prepared the list of these massacres from this a map:

Image

fge

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Postby TruthSeeker » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:04 pm)

OK, so I am assuming they claim that the documents are not forgeries.

I found the reports here:

http://www.einsatzgruppenarchives.com/einsatz.html

found by the Americans in the western part of Berlin, after the Soviets withdrew from there.

So the Soviets had them in their possession, correct? Didn't the Soviets also present the Katyn massacre "documents"?

One of the reports says:

It is obvious that the cleansing activities have to extend first of all to the Bolsheviks and the Jews.

This makes no sense. Why is it "obvious"?

Moreover, how do these documents "prove" that there were mass graves? (I didn't take a look at all the reports on that website, btw).

And why isn't there any forensic and archaeological follow-up on the "investigations" in the article David posted? It makes no sense.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Mar 30, 2004 1:29 pm)

If there was any veracity to claims of mass graves we would be seeing the sites on a daily basis via the media and 'holocau$t' promotion organizations. If they had anything they would use it tirelessly.

We see studies that unearth the Czar's family, Egyptian tombs, Pompeii, Communist mass murders sites galore; but not one site which confirms the 'holocau$t' story.

It's very simple:

no mass graves = no 'holocau$t' as alleged

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:15 pm)

Hannover wrote: If there was any veracity to claims of mass graves we would be seeing the sites on a daily basis via the media and 'holocau$t' promotion organizations. If they had anything they would use it tirelessly.

I could not agree more with this. You better believe it.

The Soviets were quite upset about the fact, that the Nazis made such a big todo about Katyn, with archeologists, forensic tests, foreign journalist present, with films and pictures.

The Soviets themselves would have made a big show if they would have discovered such mass graves.

There are pictures of mass graves floating around on anti-revisionist sites with captions indicating that these are Jewish massgraves within the Soviet Union.

Now I could myself invent all kinds of captions under all kinds of pictures. Big deal.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Tue Mar 30, 2004 2:31 pm)

Sailor:
Now I could myself invent all kinds of captions under all kinds of pictures. Big deal.


That is part & parcel of the 'holocau$t' deception; they take any photo, faked or otherwise, from who knows where? who knows when? and simply attache a caption claiming that it's a mass murder site of Jews. All the while never giving us a verifiable forensic study of the site which proves their unfounded assertions.

Back to human soap, human skin lampshades and absurd gas chambers we go. It sure is becoming hard for them to cover their lies with more lies.
As the expression goes:
'when in doubt tell the truth, it's easier to remember'


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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 5 years ago (Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:19 pm)

David:

The point of this Forum is to debate. If you find sources of info. which you find compelling, then tell us what you have found and why it seems compelling to you. Please do not simply give an outside link to someones incoherent meanderings on this topic.

Now, what is your position on the topic of this thread? Give us your opinions and specific information that you feel supports it.

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Postby Moderator » 1 decade 5 years ago (Thu Apr 01, 2004 12:04 am)

David:
Your last post was problematic, perhaps you're confused:

- It was about an alleged Belzec camp study, not an alleged mass shooting site. Note the title of this thread:

'alleged huge, known site shootings; but no mass graves'

- That alleged Belzec study has been covered here, just search 'Belzec', or 'Kola' and post to an existing thread, or start a new one.

- And the links you gave for Belzec didn't work anyway, results:

No such file or directory: ca...enza_VI.98
No such file or directory: ca...enza_II.98
No such file or directory: ca...lusions.98

Thanks, Moderator
Only lies need to be shielded from debate, truth welcomes it.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 4 years ago (Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:01 am)

Hi soda, Babi Yar covered here.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.


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