Filip Mueller / another lying "eyewitness"

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Hannover
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Filip Mueller / another lying "eyewitness"

Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Dec 28, 2002 9:08 pm)

Filip Mueller is a highly touted "eyewitness" to alleged events at Auschwitz. As with others, Mueller, once investigated, is shown to be an outright liar.
It really comes down to what he said, and can what he said be supported. Here is acclaimed "eyewitness", Filip Mueller:

- "...the 2 pits were 40 to 50 meters long, about 8 meters wide and meters deep....by digging a channel which sloped slightly to either side from the center point it would possible to catch the fat exuding from the corpses as they were burning in the pit, in 2 collecting pans at either end of the channel.."
*** a lie, the fat would burn immediately, no evidence for pits as alleged

- "...the sizzling fat was scooped out with buckets on a long curved rod and poured over the pit causing flames to leap up amid much crackling and hissing"
*** a lie, see above

- "the powers that be had allocated twenty minutes for the cremation of 3 corpses...."
*** a lie, impossible to cremate 3 bodies in 20 minutes

- "The doctors proceeded to cut pieces of still warm flesh from thighs & calves and threw them into waiting receptacles. The muscles of those who had been shot were still working and contracting, making the bucket jump about"
*** a laughable lie, no explanation necessary

- Mueller claimed 10,000 were cremated daily in the ovens of Birkenau
*** a lie, utterly impossible given the number of operating crematorium and the time lengths alleged

- "I noticed there were some small greenish-blue crystals lying on the concrete floor at the back of the room. They were scattered beneath an opening in the ceiling. A large fan was installed up there, its blades humming as they revolved."
*** a lie, there is no evidence for "greenish-blue crystals", and the cyanide (Zyklon-B) story, while completely debunked by Revisionists, claims that the gassing agent was dropped into 4 cage like wire mesh structures...no fans, they can't even keep their lies straight

sources:
'Sonderbehandling', 'Eyewitness Auschwitz - Three Years in the Gas Chambers', by Filip Mueller.
also see: 'The Giant with Feet of Clay, Raul Hilberg....', by Juergen Graf.

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Dec 29, 2002 12:58 pm)

“Flunker” (Fibber) Müller was instrumental in describing the operation of open air pit burning of dead Jews in Birkenau.
"The two pits [that had been dug] were 40 to 50 metres long, about 8 metres wide and 2 metres deep. However, this particular place of torment was not yet ready for use by any means. […]

Müller forgot about the high groundwater level in Auschwitz.

If one looks at the the architectural plans of morgue 1 of Krema II (Refer to Nizkor) or at some of the photographies of the structure, one will see that the morgue 1 extends by abou one meter (3 feet) above ground level.
And why is that so? Simple!

As anyone knows who has ever worked for a major engineering firm, the civil engineer as part of his design work for underground structures has to calculate the forces of buoyancy, or floatation, of the structure: He has to calculate the structures volume below maximum ground water level and the weight of the structure including all equipment and figure out the buoyancy.
In case of excessive floatation forces the morgue 1 structure will slightly float upwards (it is relatively light with no superstructure), the foundation joint between the morgue and the rest of the crematorium will function like a hinge and will crack, groundwater will enter and will flood all of the crematorium basement, including the morgues and the furnace area.
In order to avoid this and to reduce the buoyancy, the civil engineers decided to raise the building by one meter above ground level.

Opines Müller self-critically at the end of his book:
[…] and I was not not sure myself, whether I did not dream it all up.
:D

Müller testified during the Auschwitz trials in Frankfurt, Germany. Several of the accused former SS men were convicted, based on his testiomony. It is amazing how the German prosecutors and judges took this man’s nonsense for the truth.

fge

alpha

Postby alpha » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Dec 29, 2002 5:17 pm)

*** a lie, the fat would burn immediately


Really? Even if the temperature was not high enough to ignite the fat? where does Hannover know that the entire burning pit would have a temperature above 120°, also at the beginning?

There is in fact no reason why some fat from the corpses wasn't collected and used a additional fuel as described by Müller.

no evidence for pits as alleged


There is testimonial and photographic evidence

Nizkor


*** a lie, impossible to cremate 3 bodies in 20 minutes


According to Müller new corpses were introduced into the ovens every 20 min. However, this doesn't mean that the corpses were cremated in 20 min, since the remains of the previous load were still in the oven. The cremation of 3 bodies lasted therefore as long as it takes to dispose three bodies, perhaps 40 or 60 min. Yes, also according to Müller!

- "The doctors proceeded to cut pieces of still warm flesh from thighs & calves and threw them into waiting receptacles. The muscles of those who had been shot were still working and contracting, making the bucket jump about"
*** a laughable lie, no explanation necessary


Müller's description is physiological entirely possible, and in fact likely. Notice that he says the bucket was making sudden and short moves, not that it jumped about, in the German translation.


*** a lie, utterly impossible given the number of operating crematorium and the time lengths alleged


Müller calculates for the reader the theoretical maximum cremation capacity according to the rule (3 corpses every 20 min) the Sonderkommando applied as he remembered it in order to demonstrate what the building of the new crematoria meant. However, he doesn't say that this figure was ever achieved, AFAIK.

*** a lie, there is no evidence for "greenish-blue crystals",


Nizkor

and the cyanide (Zyklon-B) story, while completely debunked by Revisionists, claims that the gassing agent was dropped into 4 cage like wire mesh structures...no fans, they can't even keep their lies straight


Müller was refering to crematorium I in the main camp, where there was no wire mesh device. His observation is correct, sorry.

The wire mesh device of crematorium II and III is mentioned by Müller elsewhere in the book.

Conclusion: There is no evidence that Filip Müller has lied. There is also no reason why to assume that Müller's account on gas-chambers is a lie. In fact, there are many reliable and accurate details in Filip Müller's book, such as number of Sonderkommando prisoners that is confirmed by SS labour force documents.
Last edited by alpha on Sun Dec 29, 2002 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

alpha

Postby alpha » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Dec 29, 2002 5:20 pm)

Sailor wrote:It is amazing how the German prosecutors and judges took this man’s nonsense for the truth.

What exactly of Müller's testimony at the Auschwitz trial is nonsense, Sailor?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sun Dec 29, 2002 7:36 pm)

Alpha said:
Really? Even if the temperature was not high enough to ignite the fat? where does Hannover know that the entire burning pit would have a temperature above 120°, also at the beginning?

There is in fact no reason why some fat from the corpses wasn't collected and used a additional fuel as described by Müller


Alpha wants to claim that a temperature of 120 degrees will somehow, magically induce fat to pour from a corpse... incredible....no, scientifically absurd. The fat collecting story is ridiculous. It cannot be demonstrated to be true.

The silly photo that Alpha links to has been completely debunked here:
http://www.codoh.com/found/fndgcffor.html
The other photo with some grass and trees in the background, is, well, a photo with grass & trees. Where's the enormous pit to substantiate the claims.
The French map is laughable. There are no excavations to substantiate the claims, the alleged enormous pits are not seen on wartime photos and the ground water would never permit the pits as alleged by Mueller; Alpha avoids all of that.

And no Alpha, Mueller claims 3 corpses cremated in 20 minutes, that's what he said. Utterly impossible. You're quite wrong in your attempt to spin it as 'theoretical'. How odd.

And thanks for the picture of the delousing pesticide Zyklon-B. I see they are not the "greenish-blue crystals" as said by Mueller. In fact I challenege Alpha to start a thread where he makes his best case for the use of this delousing agent for alleged mass murder. Specifics please...a separate thread.

And then Alpha persists with the claim that people were gassed using bizarre "greenish-blue crystals" which were 'laying on the floor with a fan blowing on them'.... where all the alleged occupants could quite easily disrupt the entire process...silly. Alpha can believe in it if he likes.

Then Alpha claims Mueller talks about the 'wire mesh devices' without mentioning that such devices actually would inhibit the gassification of the pellets of the delousing pesticide Zyklon-B.
I also challenge Alpha to start a thread on these absurdly claimed 'wire mesh insertion devices'. I would thoroughly enjoy a debate on them. It would also be interesting to see if Alpha could produce the text of what Mueller said about these devices. Then we can compare his tale with others.....oops. Please start the thread Alpha and tell us, give us your best shot.

Ah yes, the more one tries to defend the likes of Filip Mueller the more absurd the fraud appears. Such is the so called 'holocau$t'.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hebden » 1 decade 6 years ago (Tue Dec 31, 2002 4:23 pm)

alpha wrote:Conclusion: There is no evidence that Filip Müller has lied. There is also no reason why to assume that Müller's account on gas-chambers is a lie. In fact, there are many reliable and accurate details in Filip Müller's book, such as number of Sonderkommando prisoners that is confirmed by SS labour force documents.


Whilst recently perusing the Auschwitz Reminiscences of Mr. Pery Broad, we were struck by a certain, albeit vague, sense of deja vu. Upon comparing the texts of Mr. Muller's book with Mr. Broad's work, we conjecture that there is a degree of indebtedness from the one to the other. We wouldn't, however, wish to go as far as Mr. Mattogno did in accusing Mr. Muller of plagiarism http://ihr.org/jhr/v10/v10p--5_Mattogno.html

alpha

Postby alpha » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 10:23 am)

Hebden wrote:
alpha wrote:Conclusion: There is no evidence that Filip Müller has lied. There is also no reason why to assume that Müller's account on gas-chambers is a lie. In fact, there are many reliable and accurate details in Filip Müller's book, such as number of Sonderkommando prisoners that is confirmed by SS labour force documents.


Whilst recently perusing the Auschwitz Reminiscences of Mr. Pery Broad, we were struck by a certain, albeit vague, sense of deja vu. Upon comparing the texts of Mr. Muller's book with Mr. Broad's work, we conjecture that there is a degree of indebtedness from the one to the other.


Examples?

I don't have this impression. Broad dealt with in some detail with the Bunker gassings (Müller not), short description of the Hungarian Operation (Müller's is detailed) and also the descriptions dealing with crematorium I are not really comparable.

On Mattogno: So Mr. Müller seemed to have read Nyiszli's Quick article. Perhaps. Why not? And so what? And what about the other 270 or so pages of Müller's book? What about his testimony at the Auschwitz trial?

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:49 pm)

alpha said:
And what about the other 270 or so pages of Müller's book? What about his testimony at the Auschwitz trial?


Great, good idea. Do tell us about the "other 270 or so pages"..specifics please. And tell us specifically about "his testimony at the Auschwitz trial".

Please respond, do not dodge. I'll wait.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 6 years ago (Sat Jan 04, 2003 4:32 am)

Back to the bouncing buckets of human muscles nonsense, here is a more complete quote:
"From time to time SS doctors visited the crematorium, above all Hauptsturmführer Kitt and Obersturmfürher Weber. During their visits it was just like working in a slaughterhouse. Like cattle dealers they felt the thighs and calves of men and women who were still alive and selected what they called the best pieces before the victims were executed. After their execution the chosen bodies were laid on a table. The doctors proceeded to cut pieces of still warm flesh from thighs and calves and threw them into waiting receptacles. The muscles of those who had been shot were still working and contracting, making the bucket jump about.

At first we thought the Nazis planned to use human flesh for plastic operations on wounded soldiers. Only later we learned that these buckets of living flesh were taken to the Institute of Hygiene at Rajsko where it was used in the laboratories for the growing of bacterial cultures. Once I heard Oberscharführer Ouackernack remark: 'Horseflesh would do, but in war-time it is too valuable for that sort of thing.'"

Mueller, Filip. Eyewitness Auschwitz: Three Years in the Gas Chambers.
New York: Stein and Day, 1979

Yet Alpha finds Filip Mueller very convincing.

Such are things of the 'holocau$t'.

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If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Hannover » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:31 pm)

Having just looked at Yankel Wiernik's absurd 'testimony', I suggest that Filip Mueller is even more ridiculous. Take note of the attempts to rationalize Muller's statements in this thread by a welcomed registrant.

Mueller is one of the 'biggies' for the 'holocau$t' business, comments invited.

- Hannover
If it can't happen as alleged, then it didn't.

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Postby Turpitz » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:48 pm)

If what Filip Mueller says is the product of his imagination, he must surely be one sick person. Don't people usually get banged up in mental asylum's for having such thought's and nightmares ?

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Postby code yellow » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sat Feb 14, 2004 8:03 pm)

quote:
How does Hannover know the temperature of the entire burning pit would rise above 120 degrees?

I don't think it unreasonable for anyone, even if they are not an authority on the subject of cremations, to think that a pit full of burning corpses will probably rise well above a tempurature of 120 degrees.

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Mattogno investigated the burning of fat in pits

Postby ClaudiaRothenbach » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Feb 15, 2004 3:26 am)

Here you find the German version of his essay:
http://vho.org/VffG/2003/2/Mattogno185-194.html

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Postby Sailor » 1 decade 5 years ago (Sun Feb 15, 2004 7:30 pm)

Claudia wrote: Here you find the German version of his essay:
http://vho.org/VffG/2003/2/Mattogno185-194.html


The title of Mattogno's essay is "Verbrennungsexperimente mit Tierfleisch und Tierfett" (Cremation experiments with Animal Meat and Animal Fat). It is not available in English, and not even scheduled for translation, I noticed.

The article is somehow a response to Filip Müller's claim, that the boiling and sizzling human fat at the edges of the incineration pits was ladled up with buckets which were attached to some iron rods, and then poured over the smoldering cremation fire in order to keep it going.

The article begins with summarizing research results about open air incinerations on pyres, in pits and in pits in swampy areas with a high water level, by W. Heepke, Dr. Lothes and Dr. Profé-Köln. in the early 1900's.

For pits in swampy areas Heepke recommended to dig only 1.5 m deep and to place a sheet metal shield of 1 to 2 m around the pit. This is to reduce the effects of the wind and to reflect heat on the incineration pile, thus improving the efficiency.

Mattogno than describes some test which he performed himself in his backyard (I think). He built himself from concrete blocks a little oven, fired it up with pieces of wood and placed some animal meat and bones on the grating.

He also dug himself a little pit and performed some incineration tests in it also.

Without going into all the details, he stated these facts:

Animal fat starts boiling at 200ºC, burns above 184ºC. At 280ºC it self-ignites without the aid of an outside flame.

While the temperature at the opening of his little oven was during the operation about 120ºC, he estimates that with 320 sqm pit area according to "Sondercommando" testimonies the temperature at the edge of the pit would be about 600ºC, and that the members of the "Sonderkommando" would not have been able to approach the edge of the pit to skim off some fat without some protective gear.

fge

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Postby Carto's Cutlass Supreme » 1 decade 4 years ago (Thu Jan 13, 2005 7:31 pm)

I just read this thread. It's interesting. This archive is really good. The people who know about outside fires and cooking things are outdoorsmen and farmers. So when people who have no background in this start talking about fires, some funny things happen. One thing I noticed from the Mueller quotes is that they'd did a channel in just the dirt, as if the fat wouldn't seep into the dirt and what did make it to the trough would be a mess of dirt and fat.

First you get to prominent eyewitnesses, and their stories are ridiculous, but when you delve into more obscure eyewitnesses, they end up having ridiculous stories as well. I'm noticing this and I think Hannover said this too recently.


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